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Pentecostal Church Our Model

Is the Pentecostal Church our model today?

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 ---michael_e on 5/12/22
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Acts 20:21, Acts 26:20

So michael_e says Paul was mixing law and Grace in Acts 20 and 26? Unbelievable! 1st and 2nd Peter is FULL OF GRACE, not law. As a matter of fact PETER WAS THE FIRST TO USE THE WORD GRACE.

If they really understood GRACE apart from doctrine only,( head knowledge) they would see KINGDOM LAW is nowhere found in Acts.

To the Jew FIRST and then to the Gentile Paul explains in Roman's 11 and also proves the Kingdom, AKA the time of restoration did not happen in Acts OR YET TODAY. It will come to pass AFTER THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH, Not before. If it happened before THE CHURCH there would be no Church, and Ephesians ( ALL THAT WAS FOR- ORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD)would all be a lie.
---kathr4453 on 6/10/22


Ok so there is no such thing as 7 years of restitution. SCRIPTURE PLEASE. Not sure what what is all about. And the 7 years of TRIBULATION, unlike anything the world has ever known comes directly before the Earthly Kingdom Reign, directly followed PEACE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

None if this took place prior to Acts 1 or after Acts 1.

Matthew 24-25, Zechariah 12-13, ALL OF EZEKIEL 36 describe this time prior. ZECHARIAH 14 AFTER. Isaiah 14 After Isaiah 60-66 after just for starters.


BUT YES, Kingdom law...(poking out eyes and cutting off hands to enter in) is not the Age of Grace, NOR THE BEGINNING OF ACTS.
---kathr4453 on 6/10/22


What michael_e also doesn't understand is, KINGDOM LAW will be harsh and swift. It will be a time ruled with a rod of iron. Gentiles rulers will not be in authority, JESUS WILL. It will not be some gradual growing into this time.

There was no Kingdom LAW established in Acts 1 or lived out through Acts 9 or 13 or 18 or 28. The time of repentance will take place BEFORE THE KINGDOM IS ESTABLISHED.

It also will not be a time that starts and stops because man refuses to cooperate.

michael_e's Kingdom does not exist in the first place. It's not the SCRIPTURAL KINGDOM. SO..rightly dividing the Word of truth here is a must. Knowing scripture is an absolute must in order to rightly divide.
---kath4453 on 6/10/22


Mixing the BoC with The nation of Israel is mixing Law and Grace
Acts 3:19-21 "Repent ye therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, WHEN the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of The Lord," (when is this experience the restitution of all things? During the Trib.
Peter expects The Lord's return to the Nation of Israel if they repented, he knew they are going through seven years of restitution
Peter's gospel of the kingdom or the gospel of the circumcision, preached to the nation of Israel under Mosaic law. Paul's gospel of grace, the gospel of the uncircumcision, was preached to the Gentiles under grace. Jew or Gentile, Paul's gospel is the way of salvation in this present age of grace.
---michael_e on 6/9/22


So I believe if there is not CLEAR CUT verses that CLEARLY SAY repentance is not necessary for the Church Age or Baptism is not of the Church age, then that's that. But to take verses OUT OF CONTEXT to try to prove a different doctrine, wrongly dividing the Word of Truth is NOT OF GOD.

michael_e , baptism nor communion will save you , thats true, but many of us believe in these, and definitely will not cause someone to lose their salvation who participate.

Just as Paul said, if one feels eating certain meats are bad, LEAVE THAT PERSON ALONE. You are not his conscience.

But the more serious issue here is this ANTI_SEMITIC DOCTRINE that 1st century Jews are not saved and members of the BOC THE CHURCH. That's evil.
---kathr4453 on 6/9/22




God has called all Christians to preach the Gospel, but that doesn't mean we're called to baptize too.

No scripture states that those who preach the Gospel also must baptized those they lead to the Lord. We see many having the Gift of EVANGELISM like Billy Graham for example did not also personally baptize those who responded to the Gospel. Maybe those with Paul did the baptisms.

It's wrong to think adding truth BETWEEN THE LINES is Truth. It's not. It's only YOUR IMAGINATION and how cults are formed...hoodwinked ignorant people.

Those who know scripture AND ARE BORN AGAIN can't be hoodwinked. 1 John 2:27
---kath4453 on 6/9/22


Surely by Acts 20 the Church was being preached. So seeing there is not enough room to post EVERY VERSE even Paul says Gentiles also are to repent, let's just start with these two. TO THE JEW FIRST AND THEN TO THE GENTILE...PAUL'S WORDS.


Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
---kathr4453 on 6/9/22


The division here is not sbout baptism, but carnal Christians arguing about WHO baptized them giving importance one over another, just like Paul showed in 1 Cor 3, re teachers etc. I'm of Paul. I'm of Apollo....etc. PAUL DID BAPTIZE.


1Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius,

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
---kath4453 on 6/9/22


Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel (Jew only) know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Compare Scripture. Paul tells the BoC
Gal 1:3,4 "Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins,..."
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, `Repent, and be baptized "
3:26. "Repent and be baptized." John the Baptist. introduced The King, his message was, for the Nation of Israel. "Repent and be baptized." Paul talking to a Gentile.
Acts 16:31 "And they (Paul and Silas) said, `Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.'"
---michael_e on 6/9/22


Here just a couple verses show, according to Michael_e, Paul was preaching the Kingdom restored to Israel. NOT! Hebrews 1-2 specifically say the Gospel was preached with signs and wonders backing up Mark 16.

Romans 15:19
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.


So signs and wonders were wrought among Gentiles, by the Apostles FOR WHAT? JUST TO SHOW OFF? OR To preach the Gospel to Gentiles michael_e says never happened.
---kathr4453 on 6/9/22




Signs and wonders was God authenticating these men as chosen by God for a purpose. In the OT Moses along with prophets, God was showing HIS POWER THROUGH to prove these men were of God.

Same with the NT. God is authenticating the Apostles were of God. It had nothing to do with boxing it into a dispensation as we see Paul's words in Roman's and Corinthians. Hebrews 2:3-4 clearly showing it accompanied THE GOSPEL of salvation.

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him,

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
---kath4453 on 6/9/22


No one was required to sell their possessions and help support one another during the beginning of the Church age. They did out of being persecuted. That won't be necessary during the Kingdom age, seeing when Jesus is King on earth, there will be peace on earth as it is in heaven ....sooooo no such persecution will be taking place at that time.

But you have to know and understand the Kingdom restored to Israel in the first place and all prophecy concerning this time. Read Isaiah 60-66. A child will die at 100. Isaiah 65:20. What about Isaiah 14:7..THE WHOLE EARTH AT REST????? Hasn't happened yet, not even in Acts 1 forward.

Did anyone see this from Acts 1 to Acts 9 or Acts 13 or Acts 17 or Acts 18 or Acts 23? NO!
---kathr4453 on 6/8/22


michael_e:

You wrote: Mark 16 is in my Bible

Yes, but what does that MEAN? Where does YOUR Bible come from? There are many translations, that came from many different manuscripts. The Bible on your desk is only as good as the translations, and the translations are only as good as the manuscripts they were translated from.

There are thousands of manuscripts that mostly agree on most things, but that have minor differences in some areas. The ending of Mark is one of them.

But regardless of whether the end of Mark is genuine or not, nowhere are Christians COMMANDED to drink poison or take up snakes - those are are just incidental signs that can happen (as with Paul and the snake in the wood pile).
---StrongAxe on 6/8/22


Some seem to believe their church began in Acts 2. If so, they repented of their sins were baptized, then received the HS. Then sold all their possessions and brought the money to the church. I don't know anyone that does that.
Matt-1st part of Acts is directed to Israel.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words,
Acts 3:12 | Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this?
Acts 5:35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel
Some try to force scriptures addressed to Israel into the BoC. Just creates confusion
---michael_e on 6/8/22


Unfortunately michael_e's doctrine doesn't believe ANYTHING in Matthew Mark Luke or John belongs to the Church, that it's ALL for earthly Israel .

He does not believe John 3:16, or any of John where one must be born again,, or John 17, where we are ONE IN CHRIST, or John 17:20.or John 15, etc.

So it appears there are two Jesus' ...the one God gave to Israel to die for our sin, John 3:16, and another Jesus who died for the sin of Gentiles....some mystery Jesus no one ever heard of until Paul.

I'm so glad, being a Christian Jew that not only am I born Again NOW, and a member of the CHURCH NOW, and ONE WITH GOD IN CHRIST....something earthly Israel was NEVER PROMISED.

michael_e is missing out on so many things.
---kathr4453 on 6/8/22


Mark 16 is in my Bible
If you study the whole thing you'll see, this is part of Christ's earthly ministry." It fit the Pentecost doctrine perfectly, exactly what Christ had been doing. "signs And miracles" (1 Cor. 1:22 "For the Jews require a sign,") It was never intended for the BoC the Jewish program has slipped away, and something new came in.
---michael_e on 6/7/22


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michael_e:

That ending of Mark appears in later manuscripts, not earlier ones. It's believed to have been added later, by another author.

So-called "snake-handling churches" in Appalachia make a particular point of handling rattlesnakes - but do so presumptuously, as doing so results in many injuries and sometimes even deaths - even among church pastors who get fatally bitten by the snakes they handled.

Note that when Paul was bitten by the snake, it happened *by accident*, and nothing bad happened. He didn't presumptuously stick his hand into a jar of snakes and say "See how holy I am? Even snakes can't harm me!" - which is essentially what the snake-handlers do.
---StrongAxe on 6/7/22


Acts 2:16-17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel, And it shall come to pass in the LAST DAYS
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Joel prophesied this Joel 2:28-30
Pentecost was the ending not the beginning.
The BoC doesn't practice Mark 16:16-18
---michael_e on 6/7/22


it seems a number of evangelical are close to a Pentecostal style. So true.

I do not agree with that being the true way.

We are to be teaching and spreading the Gospel. Not being happy abou lots of money.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/7/22


The Catholic Church would be a better model.
---JS1234 on 6/6/22


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Well the majority of the NT was written by Paul. Benjamin and Levi were considered Judah.

And no scripture states exactly what tribes the 12 Apostles came from. Several came from the same tribe re brothers.

So Trav again is all wet behind the ears making statements without scriptural proof.

Mary and Joseph were from Judah, as scripture states Jesus was from the tribe of Judah. He came unto His own. MEANING ALL OF ISRAEL not just Judah.
---kathr4453 on 6/6/22


The twelve never went to the nations of the world. Find one time in Scripture where the twelve had a ministry to Gentiles. They didn't,
---michael_e on 5/27/22

Michael e, as you know, there is ample scriptural proof that Judah didnt accept.
Judah is Christ own family.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Gentile the word was never uttered by Christ or Apostle being a created word later. Lost Sheep are the other House of Israel. 1ki 11:31.
We wouldn't have a NT if they had not accepted.
Zec 8:13 it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel, so will I save you, ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.
---Trav on 6/6/22


Well Nineveh was a time Israel was sent to a Gentile Nation. Just because EVERY ACCOUNT was not recorded in scripture doesn't mean it never happened. The Gentiles certainly knew of the God of Israel and many joined called Proselytes.

All those saved before Israel became a Nation were Gentiles.

God told Abraham that in him ALL NATIONS will be blessed. Barnabas and John Mark both Jews went to the Gentiles. Surely Barnabas and John Mark came from a tribe . Paul was of Benjamin which was considered Judah.

So some here are all wet behind the ears.
---kathr4453 on 6/6/22


The twelve never went to the nations of the world. Find one time in Scripture where the twelve had a ministry to Gentiles. They didn't,
---michael_e on 5/27/22

This is exactly right. After all these records are Israels records. Written by to and for Israel. A light for those that can see. Those that cannot are not meant to.
Luk 22:30That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jas 1:1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
---Trav on 6/5/22


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Trav:

You wrote: There is also ample proof the Nth house of Ten did accept. The Lost Sheep, ethnos of Israel. The Apostles, woman at the well etc. Christ didnt fail nor the Apostles. Modern false doctrines fail. Two houses.

And who, exactly are these "Nth house of Ten" that you mention that "did accept"? There is absolutely ZERO mention in the New Testament of *ten tribes* accepting Jesus while Judah did not.

Just as one can't extrapolate the acceptance by Judah from one person (e.g. Joseph of Arimathea), you similarly can't extrapolate acceptance by all 10 northern tribes one person (e.g. the Woman at the Well).
---StrongAxe on 6/4/22


The twelve never went to the nations of the world. Find one time in Scripture where the twelve had a ministry to Gentiles. They didn't,
---michael_e on 5/27/22

There is ample scriptural proof that Judah didnt accept. There is also ample proof the Nth house of Ten did accept. The Lost Sheep, ethnos of Israel. The Apostles, woman at the well etc. Christ didnt fail nor the Apostles. Modern false doctrines fail.
Two houses.
Eze 37:19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
---Trav on 6/3/22


That's exactly right Strongaxe. God knew beforehand all that would happen. Romans 11 show this.

And AGAIN, The Church was not plan B.
---kathr4453 on 6/1/22


michael_e:

You wrote: If every Jew had responded the King and Kingdom could have come. The Tribulation would have had to have taken place but, the Kingdom would come. And Israel could evangelize the world bringing Gentiles to Jesus They missed an opportunity

That could never have happened, because it would have meant that the prophecy, The stone that the builders rejected has become a cornerstone would never have been fulfilled. The stone had to be rejected by the builders first, before it could become a cornerstone. The Jews HAD to reject Jesus, to fulfill prophecy.
---StrongAxe on 5/31/22


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If every Jew had responded the King and Kingdom could have come. The Tribulation would have had to have taken place but, the Kingdom would come. And Israel could evangelize the world bringing Gentiles to Jesus They missed an opportunity
---michael_e on 5/28/22

Wrong. Even when the earthly kingdom comes only 1/3 of Jews living at that time will respond.

There is no scripture michael_e to back up your claim. Both the Church age and the Kingdom Jew and Gentiles will be saved. However ONLY during the Kingdom age will Gentimes be in submission to Jews. The MISTAKE we see made in Galatia, Paul RBUKED THEM FOR.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/22


Acts 3:19,20 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,..: "And he shall send Jesus Christ..." To be their King.
Acts 3:24 "Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel... have likewise foretold of these days."( that have just taken place.) Nothing about the Age of Grace, the Church, as of yet. a secret being kept in the mind of God until Paul.
Acts 3:25 ".. saying unto Abraham And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed."
If every Jew had responded the King and Kingdom could have come. The Tribulation would have had to have taken place but, the Kingdom would come. And Israel could evangelize the world bringing Gentiles to Jesus They missed an opportunity
---michael_e on 5/28/22


Isaiah 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

We know Acts 1 did not bring in the Kingdom promised to Israel, as Isaiah 14.....even more specifically vs 7 never happened. This is just one place describing the earthly Kindgom...there will be peace on earth as it is in heaven. WHY? Because it will take place AFTER the Great Tribulation when ALL REBELLION will be done away with FIRST.

From Act 1 there was no such thing. Jews murdered Jews. That's never gonna happen in the Kingdom.

Unfortunately we see a few here who either don't know OR understand anything about the Earthly Kingdom Reign. It's not going to start and stop and then get rebooted to start again. 2 Timothy 2:15
---kathr4453 on 5/29/22


Find one time in Scripture where the twelve had a ministry to Gentiles. They didn't, because Israel never fulfilled the requirements of accepting their King,
---michael_e on 5/27/22

Israel doesn't have to fulfill any requirements of accepting Jesus as king before the Gospel can be preached to Gentiles. Why would Israel THE NATION have to be 100 % saved before Gentiles can hear the Gospel? The opposite in Acts where Gentiles were being saved in spite of ISRAEL THE NATION not ACCEPTING JESUS . Jesus came to save individuals. There is no conditional this or that that UNLESS ALL ISRAEL does this or that. It doesn't agree with Romans 11. ONLY 2/3 of Israel will reject Jesus when He does come to set up His Kingdom. Zechariah 12-14.
---kathr4453 on 5/28/22


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By Acts 8 Philip goes To Samaria. And Samaria heard the Word. The twelve never went to the nations of the world. Find one time in Scripture where the twelve had a ministry to Gentiles,
---michael_e on 5/27/22

You are exactly right. First of all they were commanded not to.
2nd they or Christ never used the unfortunate, misunderstood word gentile. It is a latin vulgate creation. Find the time it is used and Hellene replacing ethnos or nation. One finds the Apostles and recorders of the Covenant looking, writing for exactly who they were instructed to look for. No one else does. Lost Sheep of the Divorced, scattered, Nth House of Israel.
I will. Wolves are easy to find. Sheep are on the biting snarling end of them.
---Trav on 5/28/22


There is no proof not one of the 12 went to Gentile nations. There were 12, also stating Barnabas as an Apostle who went to Gentiles. We don't know where Thomas went. Show in Acts a listing of all 12 and their ministry.

We see in Revelation 1-3 the Churches listed , some we know Paul either established or visited. Ephesians or instance. There were Churches in Asia Manor etc. Were ALL founded by Paul? Where does scripture make a distinction thst some were Jewish Churches only and others were the BOC only. It doesnt.

Zechariah 8 is not the fulfillment of the Kingdom. Chapters 12-14 are.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/22


Let's be clear that SALVATION Is being forgiven of sin. They preached Jesus death and resurrection right in Acts 2, being witnesses of His Resurrection. And forgiveness of sin. ALL SIN, not just their rejection of Jesus.

Also UNTIL THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS verse Acts 3:21, also included Jesus saying:


Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Every single prophecy WILL come to pass...PERIOD. RE the 70th week AKA The Great Tribulation BEFORE THE KINGDOM IS ESTABLISHED.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/22


Zech. 8:23 "Thus saith the LORD of host, `In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you (but not until): for we have heard that God is with you.'"
Acts 1:8 "...and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria,..."
By Acts 8 Philip goes To Samaria. And Samaria heard the Word. The twelve never went to the nations of the world. Find one time in Scripture where the twelve had a ministry to Gentiles. They didn't, because Israel never fulfilled the requirements of accepting their King,
---michael_e on 5/27/22


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If every Jew had repented of their national sin, recognized who they killed was their Messiah and King,
Acts 3:20 says God would have sent Christ at that time to be their King and would yet set up the Kingdom.////


That didn't happen did it? So common sense tells us the Kingdon WASN'T SET UP, WAS IT? Not for a NY minute.

We have another problem with that thinking. God knows beginning from end, along with the Church actually being predestined BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Ephesians! All of it!

So if Israel as a whole nation repented, michael_e says God's plan for the Church would have been scrapped, along with all prophecy OT and NEW, would never have been fulfilled. ZECHARIAH 12-14. ISAIAH 14,Matthew 24-25.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/22


21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Evidently this part went over Michael_e's head.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me, him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
-----

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
---kath4453 on 5/27/22


Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, `Repent, and be baptized every one of you..'"
Why "every one of you"? If every Jew had repented of their national sin, recognized who they killed was their Messiah and King,
Acts 3:20 says God would have sent Christ at that time to be their King and would yet set up the Kingdom.
Try to remember our Gospel of Salvation, believe Jesus died for you, was buried, and rose from the dead. Try to find that Gospel as a means of Salvation in any of these chapters.
Paul said his gospel was a mystery not known, but some think that's a lie
Even Peter Later understood that Paul had the answers 2 Pet 3.
---michael_e on 5/26/22


Matt 19:28 Jesus said unto them, `Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me (the twelve, excluding Judas), in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of his glory (His Kingdom), ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'"
---michael_e on 5/24/22

Kept posting scripture Mike. Drives teacher preachers out into the light where all can see them.

Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
---Trav on 5/26/22


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Trav has no clue what michael_e's doctrine is...THAT ISRAEL was replaced with Gentiles, God calling off the Earthly Kingdom Reign because the Jews simply refused to get with God's program. That's hilarious that Trav doesn't understand this conversation.

Jesus ALSO said in the Gospels......MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD.

The CHURCH was HIDDEN in tbe OT. It doesn't say it didn't exist. Now revealed we can see many things pointed to the Church..RE ABRAHAM...8th day Circumcision. Abraham's vision of Jesus death and resurrection, Jesus saying IF YOU KNEW ABRAHAM YOU KNOW ME.

Those today who don't understand the Church was revealed to Abraham, long before the Law, don't uderstand the CHURCH TODAY. IT BEGAN IN ACTS 1.
---kathr4453 on 5/26/22


Also THE CHURCH is going to reign and rule with Christ during the earthly Kingdom reign. So having the Apostles sitting on 12 thrones ruling at that time with Jesus Christ I don't see an issue with. The Church is also going to reign and rule during this time. Because we didn't see 12 thrown set up in Acts 1 is even more proof it didn't begin in Acts 1.

Seeing justice will be swift, the 1000 year reign cannot be thwarted by any human behavior.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/22


Acts 1:6 "... they asked of him, saying, `Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?'"
We run into so much confusion in the Scriptures because people don't read.
Many can't accept this projected Kingdom and ridicule it through ignorance.
---michael_e on 5/23/22

The confusion is all theirs. They dont get it and try to change printed truth to fit their doctrinal narrative. Foolish, but visible. Christ spoke in Parables for a reason. And gives the reason.
Paul quotes the OT over 260 times. For a reason.
Exe 20:49
Matt 13:10-35

Mat 13:11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
---Trav on 5/25/22


Acts 2:38 No mention of the death, burial, and Resurrection. Their faith was in who he is. Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and then receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10, Peter reluctantly goes to Cornelius, a Gentile. Years after the Cross. Not a Gentile has been saved.
Acts 10:44 Peter was still speaking the Holy Ghost fell on all them.
All believed, these are Gentiles who didn't know anything of the Law. But when they believed Peter, the Holy Spirit came down, God was proving to Peter that God was doing something new, saving Gentiles. Not on the basis of repentance and baptism, but the moment they heard the word and believed. Gentile believers baptized after the fact instead of before as in Acts 2:38:
---michael_e on 5/25/22


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Absolutely they believed in the promised kingdom. But a Kingdom in affect isn't a Kingdom without a KING. And we see Jesus didn't stick around to set up His Kingdom ,....BUT RATHER was ascended into Heaven. When the Kingdom is here so will Jesus literally be here, Sitting on the Throne of David. Where all Gentile and gentile world power will be in subjection to Jesus as KING.

It will happen, but has not yet happened. It didn't start and stop somewhere around Acts 9 or Acts 11 or Acts 15 or Acts 18. It never started in Acts EVER. And NEVER was there even a moment where Roman rule was overthrown. Re 70ad 135ad prove this.
---kathr4453 on 5/24/22


Zech 14:9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the EARTH: A King isn't a King without a Kingdom.
Acts 1:6 "..they asked of him, saying, `Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?'" Jesus talked to them of a future Kingdom (Acts 1:3)
So their thinking on the Kingdom is valid.
Matt 19:27 "..Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee, what shall we have therefore?'"
Matt 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, `Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me (the twelve, excluding Judas), in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of his glory (His Kingdom), ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'"
---michael_e on 5/24/22


Of course Peter is addressing Jews at a Jewish Holy Day. The verse I posted shows Peter addressed anyone who could hear.

I find it amazing the Eunuch from Ethiopia ( a gentile ...Before Paul came along) opens the Scriptures to Isaiah 53....not scripture about an earthly kingdom he could join, but about the person of Jesus Christ, who suffered and died FOR OUR SIN.

michael_e says Pentecost was about the Kingdom, not forgiveness of sin, and that the Jews were not forgiven of sin, because they didn't understand Jesus death and resurrection. That's Ludacris! Hebrews 1-2 TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION, AKA HAVING YOUR SIN FORGIVEN, showing that Good News was first accompanied with signs and wonders.....just as Luke recorded in Acts.
---kathr4453 on 5/24/22


ACTS 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

One must understand resurrection comes after death.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

There were Roman's as well living in Jerusalem at that time RE CORNELIUS. The Eunuch was Etheopian.

7 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

DOESN'T SAY ONLY JEWISH FLESH!

Please rightly read these verses.
---kathr4453 on 5/23/22


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michael_e:

Yes, Acts 2 happened *when Jews from all over the world were in Jeruselem*, so of course the comments were addressed to Jews and not Gentiles, because there weren't any gentiles there, so you can't use that to prove that the Gospel was intended for Jews only.

You bring up Cornelius, *yet note that despite the fact that it was unlawful (according to Jewish Law, not according to the Gospel), GOD HIMSELF told Peter to go to Cornelius.* Peter was clinging to old testament tradition, and God had to correct him.

Later, when new church members were gathering to eat, Peter kept with Jewish converts (also separating himself from gentile converts, as above), *and Paul again had to correct him* over this obsolete attitude.
---StrongAxe on 5/23/22


Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words, (+ gentiles NO)
Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were
baptized:.."
Same as the Baptist did did. Repent and baptize them. Same thing here. A furtherance of John's message. But now the Cross work is finished
Acts 2:42 "And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine..." What apostles? The 12. still unlawful to speak to gentiles.
Peter told Cornelius it's unlawful for me to speak to you.
---michael_e on 5/23/22


new spirit and new heart placed within them to perform as those worthy ****
---michael_e on 5/21/22

Very simple to those that ask and seek. Aligns from beginning to end. Israel chosen as wife and servant, their historical record. These trying to add to and take away stand out and are spoken of. Some replacement spirits are active as seen.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, write them in their hearts: I will be to them a God, they shall be to me a people:
Heb 9:15.
Heb 9:16 -9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
---Trav on 5/23/22


A careful reading of Acts 1:6-7 show those who know their scriptures know what the Apostles were asking. The Answer Jesus gave is NO. ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS, that is also witnessed in Matthew 24-25...only the Father knows....talking about this exact same promise of the restored kingdom to Israel.

Now again, was ALL OF Matthew 24-25 fulfilled? Was Ezekiel 36, Zechariah 12-14 fulfilled? NO.

So those who rightly divide the word of truth know the earthly kingdom did not begin in Acts 1, JUST LIKE WE KNOW NERO AND HITLER was not the antichrist. Either ALL PROPHECY is fulfilled OR its not TRUTH AND A SLOPPY DIVIDING OF THE WORD OF GOD.
---kathr4453 on 5/23/22


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Acts 1:6 "... they asked of him, saying, `Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?'"
We run into so much confusion in the Scriptures because people don't read. Take time to read what it says. When did Israel have a Kingdom they were proud of? King David's and Solomon's.
Many can't accept this projected Kingdom and ridicule it through ignorance.
---michael_e on 5/23/22

What in the world does your comment here have to do with Acts 1:6. No one is arguing whether God promised this. The argument michael_e IF YOU CAN READ. is whether it did or didn't not take place in Acts 1. There is no scripture prophecy for a Kingdom REBOOT. AND THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE TEACHING TOO. It's false doctrine period.
---kath4453 on 5/23/22


Ezekiel 36:33 Thus saith the Lord God, In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

So according to Hyper Dispensationalists GOD FAILED.GOD TOTALLY FAILED to keep His promises......seeing immediately after the beginning OF THE CHURCH IN ACTS 1, Christian Jews were persecuted and again scattered. And in 135ad a most horrible time worse than 70ad happened to Jerusalem.

You can fool some of the people some of the time. But Christians who RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH , you can't fool. Hyper Disp does not rightly divide the word of truth no matter how many times they claim THEY are the only ones who do. Hogwash!
---kathr4453 on 5/22/22


Acts 1:6 "... they asked of him, saying, `Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?'"
We run into so much confusion in the Scriptures because people don't read. Take time to read what it says. When did Israel have a Kingdom they were proud of? King David's and Solomon's.
Many can't accept this projected Kingdom and ridicule it through ignorance.
---michael_e on 5/23/22


I also find it interesting Paul shows GENTILES in 2 Corinthians 3 the difference between being under the Law or the New Testiment AKA The New Covenant. How we are being changed from GLORY to Glory BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD.

I have to reiterate to folks to really be careful when a doctrine comes along saying the Church is not SPIRIT FILLED. Just because TODAYS Penticostal churches have distorted the ministry of the Holy Spirit doesn't mean we should throw out the Holy Spirit in our lives today.

I have to wonder if Hypers are void of the Holy Spirit and this is why they believe this nonsense. Ephesians clearly show we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

No one can RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT.
---kathr4453 on 5/23/22


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Cherry picking verses out of Ezekiel 36 doesn't prove the earthly kingdom reign had begun. A careful reading of Ezekiel 36 would be seeing the whole chapter fulfilled, as it is steeped in prophecy concerning many things that were not dependent on man, as you read , there is no "IF YOU WILL, THEN I WILL" . NO, it's exclusively God saying many times "I WILL, I WILL, I WILL. "

Yet Hyper-dispensationalists insist God had to call of the earthly kingdom, leaving all these first century Jews hanging in limbo excluding them from the BOC .....all because Israel ,AS A WHOLE failed to cooperate, and God had to go to plan B, giving Paul a new Gospel of salvation that accompanied the Holy Spirit for other Jews. Nonsense!
---kathr4453 on 5/21/22


Unfortunately, seek signs for their own sake. This can lead to charismania, which Paul addressed.

One pastor taught "how to speak in tongues" - say "I love you Jesus" quickly over and over again until you speak in tongues. This is rubbish - it replaces the indwelling of the Spirit by psychological delusion.

I was once in a Pentecostal church that had authentic gifts, but one new believer insisted on praying over everyone. He laid hands on their heads and actively pushed them forward, which would make them fall over. Not by the Power of the Spirit, but by the power of physics. What he thought was a spiritual gift was imitation.
---StrongAxe on 5/22/22


Michael_e, I see you're quoting word for word from Grace Ambassadors web site, again, a hyper- dispensational web site. When doing so, it's important to state this when posting.

I don't think anyone here is interested in being brainwashed, or hoodwinked into joining this false doctrine seeing it clearly is just some's OPINION. What most here are interested in, is having a discussion with the person posting, not being bombarded with someone else's words, as they already have and are established in their own faith.

When one cannot use and defend with their own words, that's a red flag for me.

Everyone can pull up online multitudes of Hyper dispensationalist websites and see hundreds refuting this false doctrine.
---kath4453 on 5/22/22


The spirit-filled fervency and single mindedness of the disciples at Pentecost should be understood that they were supernaturally caused to live in such a manner by the contract of the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:24-27)
Overnight these followers of the Messiah were transformed through the new spirit and new heart placed within them to perform as those worthy of entering the kingdom.
As this natural result was expected from every true participant of the New Covenant law, there were consequences for those who didn't produce such fruit. Heb 6:4-6)
---michael_e on 5/21/22


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Some would like the supernatural power manifested to the Jewish believers in Acts 2. While there seems to be nothing wrong with a desire to know God and experience his life-changing love, following the wrong example can lead to doctrinal error and false emotionalism.
The empowerment of Pentecost was a prophesied result of the institution of the New Covenant made with Israel
---michael_e on 5/21/22


Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Actually no the jews who came every year to pentecost was a yearly activity. It was not some special moment for the Kingdom restored to Israel to begin. Jesus made that clear in Acts 1:6-7.

ALSO how exactly was this Kingdom restored to Israel to begin seeing they rejected Jesus as Lord AND KING. If the Kingdom was to begin then Jesus would have shown Himself to ALL just as Zechariah 12-14 states. When Jesus returns to restore the Kingdom, they will see Him and His wounds, and they will mourn. We see that didn't happen in Acts.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/22


As we see here, Pentecost was an annual thing even AFTER Acts 1, where Jews gathered on that day, as they had since the beginning of the Law. So obviously it wasn't thinking the Kingdom had come. Seeing in Acts 20, Paul after he started the supposed NEW AND DIFFERENT CHURCH , went to. Wonder what they were waiting for?
Acts 20:16
For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

1 Corinthians 16:8
But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost.
---kath4453 on 5/20/22


Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 2:47 does not say "added into them". It says THE LORD ADDED TO THE CHURCH. There is no scriptures to support the Lord is adding anyone to the KINGDOM COME ON EARTH scenario. ONE should rightly divide wording here. Plus Jesus would be reigning on earth if that were so.


WE also see in acts 20 Paul shows Pentecost didn't end in Acts 1 with Jews. This would be several years after this supposed Kingdom Come had come....proving hyper -dispensationslism makes no sense. We're they STILL waiting for the earthly kingdom reign?
---kathr4453 on 5/20/22


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Acts 2 can be confusing for Bible students who do not rightly divide. When we rightly divide, the supernatural events at Pentecost become a clear fulfillment of Gods prophetic purpose to Israel.
The prophetic foretelling and purpose of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit tells us what was happening in Acts 2 WASN'T
A random supernatural response to extreme faith
The beginning of the church the BoC
Something that can be repeated in this dispensation
---michael_e on 5/21/22


First, it's necessary to point out that an established group was already waiting in Jerusalem at Pentecost for the next step in their desire to enter the kingdom of God. Acts 2:41 states that on the day of the Spirit-filled preaching by Peter there were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. Therefore, Acts 2 doesn't describe the origin of a church, but simply the addition to an existing group that consisted of at least one hundred and twenty (Acts 1:15).
---michael_e on 5/19/22


When rightly dividing the word of truth, we see the Holy Spirit was promised to ALL FAMILIES... re Gentiles too. This is explained in Galatians.

And we see both Jew and Gentile given the Holy Spirit. As a matter of fact, Paul asked a group, "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed"?. Interestingly these were Jews who said, " we have not heard of any Holy Spirit".

Question, Was Paul guilty of preaching two different Holy Spirits? And if this same Holy Spirit indwelt all believers re Cornelius, where does scripture clearly state these are two entirely different churches.

However Ephesians clearly show that middle wall was taken down, MAKING ONE NEW MAN IN CHRIST AKA THE CHURCH..
---kathr4453 on 5/19/22


When we rightly divide, the events at Pentecost become a fulfillment of Gods prophetic purpose to Israel. The prophetic foretelling and purpose of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit indicates that what was happening in Acts 2 wasn't a random supernatural response to extreme faith
wasn't the beginning of the church the BoC, and wasn't something that can be repeated in this dispensation.
---michael_e on 5/18/22


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If receiving the Holy Spirit , which began the Church AGE, is not the Church today, my question is, 1) do hyper-dispensationslists believe ANOTHER SPIRIT is forming the Church, 2) do hyper-dispensationalists reject the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as evidence of salvation, 3) did Paul preach ANOTHER HOLY SPIRIT? when?

Or do hyper-didpensationalists believe the Holy Spirit is divided?

When God established THE CHURCH in Acts 2, and gave miracles as signs and wonders to the Apostles PROVING the Church age began then, as Hebrews 1-2 clearly explain, is it the Hyper-dispensationalists today who are void of the Holy Spirit?
---kathr4453 on 5/19/22


"Test all things, hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

There are false people involved in what they call Pentecostal. So, no we should not assume any and all Pentecostal activity is our model.

I have been with various Pentecostal people and groups. Not all are alike, plus the Bible has given me so much more than a lot of Pentecostal and non-Pentecostal people have given me and told me.

But I would say I have known certain people who have been examples of how I need to become and to love.
---Bill on 5/18/22


In order to believe the Pentecostal church of Acts 2 is our model today, one must understand exactly happened the day of Pentecost
---michael_e on 5/17/22


Another toxic behavior many Christians fall prey to (but Pentecostals are particularly vulnerable to) is Pharisaism: the "gospel" of "name it and blame it".

Whenever something bad happens, many judge and assign blame. When Katrina hit New Orleans, Pat Robertson blamed festivals like Mardi Gras and Southern Decadence - which take place in the French Quarter, the area damaged the *least*. So either God has very poor aim, or Pat was totally wrong.

When someone has cancer or financial problems that God doesn't fix, Pharisees self-righteously judge "it MUST be because of some unconfessed sin in your life" instead of comforting the victims.

Jesus told us to forgive and comfort, not to judge and blame.
---StrongAxe on 5/16/22


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One errors that came out of Pentecostalism is the Prosperity Gospel. "Name it and claim it" - if you believe, God is a Cosmic Genie who gives you anything you ask.

Funny how when normal people need money, they are told to pray, while when rich televangelists need money, instead of praying, prey on viewers, asking them for cash (and guilting them if they don't send it).

Paula White was the "spiritual advisor" to our former president. She said anyone who tells you to deny yourself is from Satan. Jesus told his followers to deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow him. You can draw your own conclusion as to whom SHE follows.
---StrongAxe on 5/15/22


I guess if all they watched is Christian Satellite channels.???No they are not my model.

Curious why someone would think they are our model today? Who is "OUR"? "Our" as in America? The Gospel of the heavenly LOTTO? That may be the gospel of apostate America, but not true Christ centered, cross centered Christians. They have the OPPOSITE MESSAGE of Christianity. But maybe with so many false politicians who have no shame in lying, it runs hand in hand with false churches. Listen, if we can't discern truth from lies in our politicians, why would these same folks be able to discern truth from lies from the pulpit?

The anti_Christ will be the biggest liar of all and MULTITUDES will believe and follow.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/22


Pentecostals recovered one piece of the Gospel lost over the centuries, but they are far from perfect. They are still vulnerable to the same errors present in the early church:

Thinking gifts are a divine sign of approval, e.g. "I speak in tongues and you don't - so I'm better than you" - toxic elitism.

"Charismania" - putting experience over doctrine, resulting in chaos (Galatians 1:8). Robert Tilton can't complete a sentence without lapsing into tongues, despite "the spirits of the prophets *are subject to the prophets*". I've seen some Pentecostal churches where things were in order, but some where they weren't.
---StrongAxe on 5/12/22


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