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Is Jesus Coming Back Soon

Do you think that Jesus is coming back soon?

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 ---jerry6593 on 7/16/22
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Haz27:

I suggest you learn some history.

From dictionary: Fascism is a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition, regimenting all industry and commerce, and emphasizing an aggressive nationlism and often racism. A political movement ... especially the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922-43.

Fascism was OPPOSED to Marxism. Marxism is about collective ownership. Fascism employed strong private corporations - e.g. Benz, Volkswagen, I. G. Farben, etc.

The Left does NOT "attack" Christianity. It only reacts to Christianity attacking IT first, e.g. by illegally imposing Biblical law in opposition of the First Amendment.
---StrongAxe on 11/15/22


AXE. Marxist Lenin was almost overthrown as leader after the failures of Communism devastated Russian society. Lenin had to change direction, so he reluctantly backed off from full Communism and instead developed a mixed economy, which he and his Marxist friend Mussolini called State Capitalism.

Lenin described this change as the DEVELOPMENT OF CAPITALISM UNDER THE CONTROL AND REGULATION OF THE PROLETARIAN STATE.

Mussolini adopted Lenins changes, and named it Fascism. Thus we see Marxist Lenin was actually the first Fascist, although he did not create that label to identify it.

In 1948 Winston Churchill noted this evolution saying As Fascism sprang from Communism, so Nazism developed from Fascism
---Haz27 on 11/15/22


AXE. Fascism is clearly of the Left. Its a variant of Marxism, as proven by Marxists Lenin and his friend Mussolini who concluded from the revolts due to failures of Communism that changes had to be made, hence the Marxist variant of Fascism was born (Mussolini first used the term).

Listen to academics such as Prof Carol Swain on Prager U YouTube site as she exposes the lies in the Lefts Big Switch myth.

Genocidal? Progressive Left have been pushing for ever easier and later term abortions (mostly Black babies) for many years.

Christophobic? That is very obvious from the Fascist Lefts constant attacks against Christianity for decades.

Your questions only further proves how much the Leftists control your mind.
---Haz27 on 11/15/22


Haz27:

You keep saying "genocide", against WHOM? And what PROOF?

"Christophobic" how? Again, proof?

All Democratic administrations in the past 50 years COMBINED had 3 criminal indictments. Republican ones before Trump had 100+. Trump's alone had 200+. Plus all this year about Trump alone. In Manattan Trump Inc. CRIMINAL trial, it just came out Trump KNEW fraudulent tax returns were filed and went along with them.

Trump BOASTS of corruption. In The Art of the Deal, he said asking contractors to work, then refusing to pay them, is GOOD business practice. Thinking he's a beacon of righteousness is delusion.

Also, Fascism is hard right, not left.
---StrongAxe on 11/14/22


Haz: Good to see you again.


Katty to Haz: "Seeing you are from Australia, your input here has no effect."

How about ax? He's from Canada. So what?


ax: "Sidnick was hit in the head by a fire extinguisher"

That has been proven false - not evidence.

"Babbitt was shot while forcing her way into Capitol, later died." Another lie. Video evidence shows she was shot OUTSIDE the window while DEFENDING the Capitol from leftist thugs. She died there.

"Where is **PROOF** of "false flag operation"?" Where is Ray Epps, the real insurrectionist? And why isn't the J6 interested in him?
---jerry6593 on 11/15/22




Haz I've studied the letters Paul has written to know what the will of God is. Starting with Romans 16:24-27. It's God's will for us to understand the Gospel according to the Mystery. This was revealed in John 17 and more fully revealed through Paul's epistles after Jesus rose from the dead. It's actually understanding we are no longer of this world. Jesus even said he was not praying for this world. We are Ambassadors for Christ. Ambassadors don't try taking over governments. Heaven is our home now and we need to point to that home not here.

Now if your of the Kingdom Now crowd, poking out eyes and cutting off hands to enter in...you're following another Gospel. GALATIANS 1:6.

Don't worry about what I believe Haz.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/22


Kathr. Its obvious no political party advocates for Christs priorities.
But of the 2 political sides its obvious Leftists (such as Democrats) are far greater evil, being Christophobic, genocidal, racists, corrupt, haters, etc.

Its also obvious the major political Right party in Western nations are corrupted by having many members (Cheney an example) who work towards the same globalist agendas as the more extreme Leftists do.

Trump is one of the few politicians in western nations who stood up for the people against the thought policing and dominating agendas of the corrupt ruling elites.

BTW you seem aware what the will of God is, but not able to specifically identify it. Study gospels to see what Jesus says it is.
---Haz27 on 11/13/22


Kathr. The threat I see in USA, Australia, etc is the growing tyranny of Fascist Left who dominate institutions of power and influence controlling & censoring public debate/thought & cancelling dissenters.

Their propaganda is even creeping into many churches who are now obsessed with the false gospel of (political) social justice virtue signaling (read Matthew 6:1-3 to see what Jesus thinks of such self serving hypocrisy), instead of true gospel (John 3:16).

AXE. 3 days ago I saw the latest posts were the usual people pushing political propaganda, just as it was nearly 2 years ago.

And I see that your usual bluff & bluster & your deceitful tactic of misrepresenting me has not changed either.

---Haz27 on 11/14/22


Haz Jerry Falwell way back when preached segregation... and actually began the ecumenical UNCHRISTLIKE movement, joining hands with Mormons, Catholics Christians who could all agree on the Law of Moses, .....however The Law of Moses is putting folks back under the Law. And has tried to use politics to turn America into a Theocracy...AKA Christian Nationalism.

You perhaps may want to adhear to the 7th letter to the Church in Revelation.

This country has been taken over by the Charismatic movement who has never known persecution for the sake of THE CROSS. Their doctrine is all about miracles and money, not suffering or persecution.

Clouds without water. No LIVING WATER comes out of them because they have no root.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/22


Haz27:

You leave these blogs for THIRTY TWO MONTHS, not saying a single word, and then suddenly come back asking questions with both barrels blazing, demand answers, and accuse people of ignoring your question because they didn't immediately answer you on the same day?

That's pretty presumptuous, impatient, and rude.

And you talk abuot "politically obsessed followers", yet most of your messages appeared to be full of political vitriol. You should look in the mirror before throwing accusations. YOU seem much more concerned with Caesars' wills than God's.

You speak as if you are intimately familiar with American politics. WE live in the U.S. and see what is happening here. YOU don't.
---StrongAxe on 11/13/22




Well Haz, Since the very early 80's before any boogie men the Lord made me painfully aware of a DIFFERENT GOSPEL being preached in Churches taking over many churches. The preaching of the CROSS was set aside for the flag, yes, way back then. And God's WILL FOR ME was to continue upholding the preaching of the CROSS through much persecution. You see Haz, THIS is what is called the fellowship of His Sufferings....and THIS IS GOD'S WILL. So unless you first obeyed Romans 12:1-2, I doubt you actually KNOW The Will of God. But you can try by reading and obeying Romans 16:24-27 first, Colossians 1:24-27 to really understand Phil 2-3, Gal 2:20-21 Gal 6:14. Warning Christians the Rep Party today is not Christianity is GODS WILL. No party is.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/22


Kathr. I note you didnt answer my question on what is the will of God that Jesus says Christians do (Matt 7:21). Sadly I find too often politically obsessed followers of the Left show no interest in Gods will.

As for myth of Christian Nationalism & White supremacy, theyre just 2 of the various bogeymen fabricated by Fascist Left to deceive the naive.
Its sad that you continue to embrace the hatefully divisive identity politics from your racist political masters.

Youre good example of the real issue in USA, which is Fascist Left controlling and censoring public debate to deceive people like you.

I suggest you study scripture to find what is Gods will and then focus on that, instead of trusting the Lefts lies.
---Haz27 on 11/12/22


Haz, I suggest you first take your own advice. Then you as an example can preach to others and be taken seriously. Seeing you are from Australia, your input here has no effect.

The Will of God is not falsely accusing others of defending fascism. That I know for a fact. It is however defending CHRISTIANITY , that has no political affiliations whatsoever. But I don't think even you understand that.

Seeing the real issue in America is Christian Nationalism, beginning with white supremacy, that actually began with Jerry Falwell, it's important that WE SPEAK TRUTH this is not Christianity.

So prove speaking up is not Gods will.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/22


Ax and Kathr. I see you both continue to place your trust in the hateful propaganda lies from the self serving Fascist Left.

Instead of entangling yourselves in their propaganda lies (a distraction from the devil) I suggest you embrace Christ's priorities for humanity (read 2Tim 2:4).

For example, in Matt 7:21 Jesus says only those who DO THE WILL OF GOD shall enter Heaven.

Do you know what the will of God is that Jesus refers to here?
And do you do it?

Eph 5:17 "Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is."
---Haz27 on 11/12/22


jerry6593:

Biblical evidence standard is 2-3 witnesses. Election deniers have NONE. I supply evidence. You can't.

1. Sidnick was hit in the head by a fire extinguisher, returned to office, collapsed, died. Four officers committed suicide due to riot-induced PTSD.

3. Babbitt was shot while forcing her way into Capitol, later died.

4. Where is **PROOF** of "false flag operation"? Many arrested had many pro-Trump social media posts. Whitmer suspects posts linked them to boogaloo - right wing anti-government extremists.

5. Web search: Jan 6 gallows. Snopes has photo. Mob chanted "Hang Pence!"

Again, how is spreading human waste on Capitol walls "patriotic"?
---StrongAxe on 11/10/22


ax: Explain why you continue to spread Dem lies.

1. No police were killed on J6. - 1 cop died of a heart attack at home.

2. One woman was beaten to death by cops.

3. One white woman was murdered by a black cop while trying to stop leftists from smashing window.

4. J6 was a Dem false flag operation, like the kidnapping of Gov. Whitmer. The rowdy perps were lefties, including some FBI folks - not MAGAs. It was planned to stop the constitutional debate over election irregularities - it worked.

5. What gallows?

Lying is still a sin, ax.


---jerry6593 on 11/10/22


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Jerry:

Explain how these are "acts of patriots":

- Bringing a gallows and attempting to assassinate the vice president and leader of the house (1)
- Killing a police officer (1)
- Taking down the American flag, and replacing it by the flag of a traitorous nation (the Confederacy) that waged war on the United States, and lost
- Stealing a podium (2)
- Breaking into congressional offices and stealing laptops (2)
- Smearing bodily waste on the walls.

In case you need a reminder, Bibles still include "Don't Kill" (1) and "Don't Steal" (2).

These people believed Trump's PREMEDITATED LIE that the election was stolen, despite ZERO evidence, and still believe this strong delusion.
---StrongAxe on 11/9/22


Such snow flakes. If I didn't win, it's because someone cheated..bla bla bla.

So there wasn't a RED TIDAL WAVE. HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/22


Jerry:

Which "investigators"? "proving" what? Be specific. Republicans had TWO YEARS to prove election fraud, but so far NO evidence. **Where is the proof?**

Evidence shown to Jan. 6 committee proves Trump planned BEFORE THE ELECTION WAS HELD to claim it was rigged.

Many REPUBLICANS caught in fraud - voting twice, postman altering ballots before delivering them, submitting fraudulent elector slates.

Trump asked Georgia for recounts, NOT "to make the election secure" but "I need 11,780 more votes". This wasn't a president caring about election integrity. It was a candidate who couldn't stand to lose.

Two years ago we were using freezer trucks as MORGUES.
---StrongAxe on 11/9/22


ax:

"Trump has continously [sic] lied about the election being stolen, and encouraged the Capitol assault. As a result, several people died."

No ax, it is YOU who have continuously lied about Trump. There was indeed an insurrection, on Nov. 3 2020, as investigations are now proving. Democrats only win by cheating. The patriots incarcerated by for Jan 6 "crimes" are nothing but political prisoners. They will be freed when the valid president, Donald Trump, resumes power.

How many LIES were told about the Russia Hoax against Trump?

Is your life better now under the brain-dead Biden? My family is suffering because of YOU crooked Dems.


---Jerry on 11/9/22


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I certainly hope so
---Joseph on 11/7/22


Good points.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/1/22


Now concerning that day and hour no one knows neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son- except the father only
Matthew 24:36
---WIVV on 9/25/22


It's actually what anti -Christ means in scripture. It doesn't mean against Christ, but an imposter pretending to be Christ. It appears this is what this world is heading towards. Just look at the influence the Russian Orthodox has over Putin and vice versa. But interestingly enough the non Church part of the government now wants to boot Putin. The RO was all for the war using religion as its excuse to murder thousands. ....it will be interesting to see how that all ends.

Jesus said MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD.
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
---kathr4453 on 9/12/22


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And just to add, it's exactly what Christian Nationalism is about here. The influence the Moral Majority has had since the 70's as well as the info on THE FAMILY documentary going back to the 50's. It's religion trying to take over.
---kath4453 on 9/11/22


kathr4453:

Jesus told us to "make disciples of all nations". The way you make someone a disciple is to show that you have something desirable, to make them WANT to learn from you. Forcing your theology down other people's throats isn't turning them into disciples - it's turning them into slaves. This is what Dominionists want - to establish a Kingdom of God on earth, and force everyone else to live in it. This is diametrically opposed to what Jesus wanted, as he came to break bonds and free captives. He said his kingdom is NOT of this world, but unfortunately, many of his followers seem to think they know what he wants better than he himself does.
---StrongAxe on 9/11/22


Strongaxe, awesome perspective. First time I've heard it put that way and fits perfectly. Thank you. This is absolutely what Dominionists Replacement Kingdom Now Theology teaches. They also believe Jesus won't return UNTIL we fix everything. Totally opposite to what the NT teaches. Things aren't going to get better, but worse. 2 Timothy 3 makes this clear. Also Colossians 3 make clear we THE CHURCH are no longer in or of this world. We're here as Ambassadors for Christ, nor rulers for Christ. People need to understand the difference.

Thanks for that.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/22


kathr4453:

The Brothers Karamazov has a sub-story The Grand Inquisitor. Jesus returns during the Inquisition, heals the sick, is arrested for heresy. The Inquisitor says he was foolish to reject Satan's offer of temporal power - a mistake the Church corrected. Feed men, control their conscience, and rule the world. It ruled the world in the name of God, using Satan's principles.

Sadly, Dominionist Christians fall to the same temptation - abandon everything Jesus taught to gain worldly power to forcibly create what they think is the Kingdom of God - but is really the Kingdom of Satan. This is the same mistake Catholic Europe made when it murdered and pillaged "heathen" countries in the name of Christ.
---StrongAxe on 9/10/22


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Absolutely. But I think something deeper is happening here, looking at this through a different lens. We know the coming beast anti-Christ is full of lying signs and wonders, sitting as though he was God. So how do we know this isn't a test God has given as a warning revealing this apostate Christian entity that if they can't discern this evil how will they discern when the real things comes along. I'm sure there will be more exalting of the real beast than we see now. Isn't it interesting it's apostate Christianity exalting this monster?

There's more than just extreme narcissism going on here. It's evil to the core. Satan is the FATHER OF LIES. TRUMP ONLY KNOWS HOW TO LIE. ITS A NO BRAINER.
---kathr4453 on 9/10/22


kathr4453:

Trump has continously lied about the election being stolen, and encouraged the Capitol assault. As a result, several people died.

Trump claimed legal FBI warrants on Mar a Lago were persecution. As a result, Ricky Shiffer attacked FBI Cincinnati office, and died.

Trump long knew his lies were getting people killed, but he doesn't care. While not murder, that definitely qualifies as manslaughter - exhibiting a depraved indifference to human life that gets people killed.

Hosea 4:6: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee". This is what happens to people who reject truth and willingly embrace the lie.
---StrongAxe on 9/9/22


Exactly Strongaxe, and Jerry KNOWS these facts. Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. It's just that simple. A very good example of folks getting TIRED OF IT ALL IS Ron Johnson , a Republican not doing well in the polls. He's just one example of many.

Just because someone is not a MEGA Republican doesn't make them a RINO either. Trump has RUINED this country and the Republican Party. Many are disgusted with all this violence and talk of violence.

If Trump murdered someone...they would still say. "oh it's political they want to arrest him". Or MURDER is not that bad" or some off the wall excuse. It's like always playing the RACE CARD. IT GETS OLD.
---kathr4453 on 9/9/22


kathr4453:

Exactly! Recent people rejecting rule of law and choosing violence:
- Trump pushing the lie that the election was stolen, even though he KNEW it wasn't, and all those close to him KNEW it wasn't - causing thousands to storm the capitol to try to overthrow a lawful election.
- Trump holding on to classified document, in violation of a subpoena - so when a warrant is issued, Trump claims he's being persecuted, and one of his supporters tried to storm an Ohio FBI office (and died in the attempt).
- Government officials trying to uphold the law, and getting death threats - from outraged Trump supporters.

While claiming to be Republicans, that claims to be a party of Law and order, the people above respected neither.
---StrongAxe on 9/8/22


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Jerry, the dems didn't start Jan 6 violence and MURDER OF OUR LAW INFORCEMENT,...Lindsay Graham threatened violence recently....and FBI agents are being threatened by violence...and not by Dems..AND THIS IS WHAT BIDEN WAS REFERRING TO. Everyone gets it but you.

I'm a Republican Jerry, and many Republicans agree with Biden on this issue. Only a SMALL handful of NOISY MEGA's make those twisted comments. Your not in the majority. If the Senate and House lose Republicans.....it's all Trumps fault.

If more Republicans stood up and called out this nonsense instead of excusing it Republicans COULD WIN more seats. Why, because the majority of Republicans are GOOD HONEST FOLKS who hate this garbage going on.
---kathr4453 on 9/8/22


jerry6593:

You wrote: You must be talking about Biden and his NAZI speech (as we Americans call it). Never has a US President made such a dark and incendiary speech. The left seems to be trying to provoke a civil war.

You have a short memory. Trump made similar speeches all the time about Democrats. Republicans have been calling Democrats socialists, communists, devil-worshipers, and worse.

Yet again, remove the beam from your own house before criticizing the speck in others'.

Not "people who want to make America great". They claim that, but look at the facts. They praise white nationalism and xenophobia, want to suppress media, force religious laws on others. These are literally things fascists do.
---StrongAxe on 9/8/22


kat: "So these scare tactics and threats ARE FROM THE PITS OF HELL, AND IM SICK OF IT. I hope they all get their seats handed to them this coming election. Bullies are losers."

You must be talking about Biden and his NAZI speech (as we Americans call it). Never has a US President made such a dark and incendiary speech. The left seems to be trying to provoke a civil war.

Calling people who want to make America great "fascists" is just plain stupid. Did you think that of Bill Clinton when he said the same thing?


---jerry6593 on 9/7/22


Whether He comes soon or not, I'm ready.
---JS1234 on 9/2/22


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We're seeing the beginning of this violent mentality right now with the issues going on re: Jan 6, was violence. Lindsay Graham's dog whistle of violence if their God re Trump is held accountable for theft and who knows what else. Having an underground tunnel from M-lago to a cottage across the highway is alarming. yikes. Perfect set up for espionage taking place .

If there is going to be violence BRING IT ON. And lets finally put this mentality to bed once and for all.

Weren't we told the stock market would crash if Trump didn't win. IT DID NOT.
So these scare tactics and threats ARE FROM THE PITS OF HELL, AND IM SICK OF IT. I hope they all get their seats handed to them this coming election. Bullies are losers.
---kathr4453 on 9/1/22


jerry6593:

Many conservatives complain this country is drifting far away from the Founding Fathers' vision, yet they ignore what the Founding Fathers actually said about their vision.

James Madison wrote:

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries."

Europe was constantly plagued by bloody religious persecution, holy wars (The Crusades, the Inquisition, conquest of the Americas) and the Founding Fathers tried something new: keeping government out of religion (and vice versa) would spare us from all that bloodshed. Sadly, many today want to go back to those "good old days". Sigh.
---StrongAxe on 9/1/22


If the constitution is overthrown, we'll have religious wars posturing for WHOS religion will rule. If you look at other countries without the separation of Church and state, re for example, The Sunni's versus the shiites, or China murdering those in Tibet, or murdering Muslims or Hindu etc, EVERYTHING OUR FOUNDING FATHERS put guardrails up to prevent in establishing the Constitution.

It didn't work in Geneva during Calvin's time, or when the puritans tried to take over England or in Massachusetts....when neighbor spied on neighbor ...also leading to the Salam witch hunts where Christians murdered OTHER CHRISTIANS.

You will NEVER see Paul or any christians teach us to try to overthrow Rome or any city state or country.
---kathr4453 on 9/1/22


No Jerry. Samuel is correct. You may want yo watch THE FAMILY ...a series on Netflix how the Religious Right, has been working for the last 50 years to try to overthrow democracy and bring in a theocracy in America called Christian Nationalism. They LOVE, or at one time LOVED TRUMP. He was their WOLF KING...THE CHOSEN ONE. ALSO Trump put ultra conservative CATHOLICS on the Supreme Court who don't believe in the separation of Church and state.

Christian Nationalism is not a liberal entity, but the opposite. Democrats want DEMOCRACY, Christian Nationalists do not.

It's a counterfeit form of Christianity AKA APOSTACY that will usher in the anti_Christ.
---kathr4453 on 8/31/22


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jerry6593:

Before critizing others' brainwashing, examine your own first.

Most Christians (Catholic and Protestant alike) hold Sunday sacred. If Evangelical Dominionists succeed in turning America into a theocracy, THEY will impose Sunday rule, not Catholics. The left has nothing to do with this, as imposing ANY kind of holy day (Sunday, Saturday, or even Islamic Friday) is establishment of religion, violating the First Amendment.

Trump encouraged his followers to stage a coup and assault the Capitol. He illegally kept classified documents, including NUCLEAR SECRETS, in his home for a year and a half after being out of office. But sure, keep right on believing the left is undermining America but he's not.
---StrongAxe on 8/31/22


sammy: You've been brainwashed. It is the left, in concert with the papacy, who are trying to destroy America, usher in world governance, and institute Sunday as a rest day for Mother Earth.

---jerry6593 on 8/31/22


Jerry Trump is working with the Christian nationalist to take over the United States and make it a so called Christian county. That would have them put in a Sunday law.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/20/22


jerry6593:

To be picky, Matthew 17 said "they appeared", not WHERE they appeared from. Both Moses and Elijah appeared here, even though Elijah was taken into heaven directly while still alive, while Moses died first.

The fact remains that 2 Kings 2:11 said Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into heaven", while John 3:13 says "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

So one of three things must be true:
1) One of these two verses is incorrect
2) Elijah wasn't a man, so the second verse doesn't apply to him
3) Elijah WAS the Son of Man, so it does
None of these conclusions are appealing, but I can't see a fourth option.
---StrongAxe on 8/13/22


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ax: Once again, the answer lies in first assuming that the Bible does not contradict itself, and God cannot lie. So we have to look deeper.

Consider the hint in the book of Jude:

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

and, again on the mount of transfiguration:

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

These were real, physical people talking with them, not some ethereal spooks.


---jerry6593 on 8/13/22


jerry6593:

Deuteronomy 34:5-6:
So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.
And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

So Moses was NOT assumed into heaven.

2 Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

John 3:13 directly contradicts this. What a conundrum!
---StrongAxe on 8/9/22


Jerry, this is where I get this stuff.

John 3:12-13

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
---kathr4453 on 8/8/22


Jerry, you will not find any scripture where humans were taken up into the Holy of Holies,THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM before Jesus death and resurrection.

But I absolutely agree these did not experience SOUL SLEEP..THANK YOU. Hebrews 12: 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
---kathr4453 on 8/8/22


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Kat: "Nothing entered Heaven until Jesus died and rose again."

How about Enoch, Moses and Elijah?

You really need to stop writing your own bible!


---jerry6593 on 8/8/22


The Paradise of God spoken in Revelation, is something different than Paradise that Paul was carried up to he called the 3rd heaven. The Paradise of God seems to be talking about the Garden of Eden with the tree of life that was closed off after Adam and Eve's sin. And I believe that verse is pointing to the new heaven and earth after this one passes away.

Today you will be with me in Paradise was where the righteous dead went, AKA ABRAHAMS BOSOM , before Jesus resurrection. OT Saints did not go to some spiritual Garden of Eden. We see after Jesus resurrection, in Hebrews 12, they are called the spirits of just men made perfect in heaven now with God, Jesus, the Angels AND CHURCH OF THE FIRST BORN.....that would be us today.
---kathr4453 on 8/7/22


What I find interesting is Jerry's last post was on SATURDAY. Okok, he may have posted after sundown on Saturday, but WOW, did Jerry REALLY REST here, did he pull up CN while under the Sabbath REST, waiting for the sun to go down before posting. It seems that having that REST didn't push away all worldly thoughts and activities with a renewed mind. It looked like Jerry just couldn't wait till the sun went down to immediately post....that showed up SATURDAY.
---kathr4453 on 8/7/22


Rev 2:7 ... "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Moved long before the resurrection.///


Where does the verse say it was moved long before the resurrection? Nothing entered Heaven until Jesus died and rose again. He entered FIRST, through His own blood.

Unless you're saying Revelation was written before Jesus death and resurrection.????Then I would ask you....where do you get YOUR stuff?
---kathr4453 on 8/6/22


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kat: "What Jerry and Friends fail to understand is before Jesus death and resurrection PARADISE was known as this place with a great divide" "Paradise was moved to heaven at Jesus resurrection."

Rev 2:7 ... "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Moved long before the resurrection.

Where do you get this stuff? Were you around before Jesus?


---jerry6593 on 8/6/22


jerry6593:

You wrote: Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

That is a reasonable explanation.

On the other hand, there is still nothing in scripture that would explain why Jesus would be sitting idly somewhere for 1800 years, and only then enter the heavenly sanctuary, and spend 200+ years reading through books before rendering a final judgment.

It's inconsistent on its face - because for every day he spends reading, more pages are added to the books, which he would then need to read, ad infinitum, and he would never finish.
---StrongAxe on 8/4/22


What Jerry and Friends fail to understand is before Jesus death and resurrection PARADISE was known as this place with a great divide where we see in Luke where Abrahan is on the higher ground, and a great gulf between with those waiting for judgement. This was not where the Father's thrown was at that time, as Jesus was the very first to enter HEAVEN, before all the OT RIGHTEOUS could. When He ascended into Heaven He led and set the captives free ..the righteous. It's all there in Hebrews 11 and 12. These ot saints are said to be the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT. Their perfection came with Jesus resurrection. Paradise was moved to heaven at Jesus resurrection. So the thief died snd went to Abraham's Bosom AKA paradise.
---kathr4453 on 8/4/22


ax: "Since you don't seem to like my interpretation of that, how do YOU interpret it?"

Simple. Begin by assuming that there does exist a logical explanation - one that does not make Christ a liar. Here it is: The original Greek has no punctuation, and the comma was invented centuries after Christ. Try moving the comma before the word "today" rather than after it, and you get:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Strange how doctrines can change because of simple errors, eh? (A little Canadian lingo there.)


---jerry6593 on 8/4/22


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jerry6593:

I literally just quoted Jesus. I don't see how you can possibly spin that into "calling him a liar".

Since you don't seem to like my interpretation of that, how do YOU interpret it?
---StrongAxe on 8/3/22


ax: "Today you will be with me in paradise"

So you are calling Jesus a liar!

Was He lying when He said that or when He said to Mary 2 days later:

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

Perhaps your interpretation is off.


---jerry6593 on 8/3/22


jerry6593:

Jesus also told the repenting thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise", not "2000 years later, after I've read through the books". Was that a parable too?

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Do you hear Moses and the prophets?


In Hebrew, the word QARA means both to read and to proclaim. This is because reading was done out loud. Peasants were generally illiterate. They didn't read scriptures for themselves, but heard them read out loud in the synagogues. And today, we hear them being preached from church pulpits. So, yes.
---StrongAxe on 8/2/22


ax: "So how does one reconcile these two things?"

Easy. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. Nothing in it is realistic: All saved humans fit on Abraham's chest, Lazarus' thirst is satisfied by one drop, Heaven and Hell are close enough to reach across, etc.

You miss the entire point of the story, namely:

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Do you hear Moses and the prophets?



---jerry6593 on 8/1/22


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Jerry, those facing the Great White Throne Judgement are facing THE SECOND DEATH.

Wouldn't that mean there was a first death? Strongaxe pointed out those in Luke after facing their first death were in a place called hades, shoel. There was a great divide between Abraham's Bosom and hades, before Jesus death and resurrection. The righteous dead went to Abraham's Bosom and will be part of the first resurrection. Those others will be brought forward at the GWTJudgement to face THE SECOND DEATH.

Those who are OF FAITH ARE BLESSED WITH FAITHFUL ABRAHAM. You see, the law was added 430 years after Abraham, but never annulled the promises given to Abraham and his seed. Re those whose faith is was and has slways been in Jesus Christ
---kathr4453 on 7/28/22


Jerry, seeing I have been born again, through Jesus Christ, a gift offered to you as well are part of the first resurrection. We've already died with Christ. Our old man has been crucified with Him, and we are raised up RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK, A NEW CREATURE.

Those who have not are not Christ's, clearly stated in Galatians 5:22-25. Philippians 3.

So to your second question, those unsaved will be raised up to go to the great white Throne judgement. Then death will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is HELL.

Christians are judged at the judgement seat of Christ. A totally different place and time.
---kathr4453 on 7/27/22


jerry6593:

But notice Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Both the rich man and the beggar Lazarus died. Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom. The rich man went to hell - where he asked Abraham to send Lazarus over with a drink of water. This was not set in some future time, thousands of years in the future, after books were open, and there was a trial. This was set in the past.

So how does one reconcile these two things?
---StrongAxe on 7/27/22


kat: Since you mentioned the two resurrections, how do you think that the determination as to which resurrection you are in is made? A judgement is made!

Did you also note that "the rest of the dead" (wicked) do not live again until the 1000 years have ended? So no one currently goes to hell at death!

It is wrong to punish people before they have had a trial!
---jerry6593 on 7/27/22


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There will be many new understandings now in the age of eternity because ETERNAL God will teach us TRUTH that has been hidden for 2,000 years.

The commandments were abolished, and destroyed along with the devil.

Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace
---more_excellent_way on 7/25/22


Actually the final judgement will be those who rejected Jesus Christ. People can try to obey the 10 commandments and still not believe in Jesus Christ. Just look at the pharisees.

And the LAW AKA the 10 commandments were added so SIN WOULD ABOUND.**Romans 5 **Therefore no one can or has ever kept the 10 commandments. James says if you've broken 1 you have broken all.

Where sin abounds GRACE MUCH MORE ABOUNDS. Romans 5

PLEASE REREAD ROMANS 5 for those who think they are going to pass the smell test of the Law.
---kathr4453 on 7/25/22


jerry6593:

The Bible's timeline:
1) People stand before God
2) Judgment is declared
3) The books are opened

The SDA timeline:
1) Jesus goes into a private sanctuary
2) He opens the books
3) He spends 200+ years slowly reading them
4) He declares judgment
5) People stand before him
---StrongAxe on 7/24/22


Jerry, if you are part of the first resurrection, you are not part of THE DEAD ,who are judged at the great white thrown. That's a judgement for the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
---kathr4453 on 7/23/22


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CHRIST already returned to me and His Spirit is within....


Eph 3:16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with might through his Spirit in the inner man,
---more_excellent_way on 7/23/22


ax: "Nothing in scripture says Jesus needs centuries to pore [sic] over books."

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

ax, There is a judgement coming, and we will all be judged according to the standard of the Ten Commandments. Better get ready!

---jerry6593 on 7/23/22


Based on Matthew 24:42 no one knows when Christ will return. We are told we just have to be ready.
---WIVV on 7/22/22


jerry6593:

Nothing in scripture says Jesus needs centuries to pore over books. Investigative Judgment is a rationalization to explain why Jesus didn't physically return in 1844.

I'm not obsessed with comic books. "Retcon" is used in many areas when people rationalize retroactively changing canon. It happens in movies when a sequel does not logically follow the original. Soap operas bring back dead characters, sometimes with explanations, sometimes not. Dallas accommodated Patrick Duffy's return by saying Bobby Ewing's death and the whole subsequent year were just a dream. Newhart one-upped that by saying the entire series was a bad pizza dream of his character in his previous show.
---StrongAxe on 7/22/22


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ax: Your history is a bit off. People of many denominations were Millerites. Indeed, Miller himself was a Baptist and the Harmon family (Ellen White's maiden name) were Methodists. But your statement that "SDA retconned this by saying Jesus DID return - to the heavenly sanctuary." is wrong! Since Jesus was already in heaven, He couldn't possibly return there! The date computation is correct, October 22, 1844, but they got the event wrong. The "cleansing of the Sanctuary" referred to the Heavenly Sanctuary and the date was the beginning of the investigative Judgement - not the coming of Jesus to earth.

Does your fascination with the word "retcon" stem from your obsession comic books? Just askin'.
---jerry6593 on 7/22/22


jerry6593:

JW and SDA came from Millerites, who believed Jesus would return in 1843-1844.

JW repeatedly retconned this, every time claiming "new light", repudiating previous false claims, and making new ones.

SDA retconned this by saying Jesus DID return - to the heavenly sanctuary, and ever since is involved in "Investigative Judgment", examining books in heaven, to see who is worthy. (This could never end, as every year spent reading old books, new ones are written).

You are literally date-setting 2027. Who said the world was created in 3972 BC, or Abraham+Isaac was 1972 BC? The bible never says 2000 year periods are significant. More mathemagical handwaving.
---StrongAxe on 7/20/22


I agree that Camping, et al were looney for predicting the date of Jesus return when Jesus clearly says that "no man knoweth the day or the hour". SDA's have never believed in date setting. However, Jesus did describe the signs of the times when the end was near, and they have never fit so well with the times as currently.

He also never forbid the predicting of the year. It is tempting to observe that, in keeping with the God's "a day is as a thousand years" principle, the promise of a redeemer slain from the foundation of the earth reaches the 6000 year point in the fall of 2027, with 2000 year markers at the attempted slaying of Isaac by Abraham and the anointing of Jesus at his baptism (AD27).

---jerry6593 on 7/20/22


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