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Baptism Spiritual Effects
No scripture teaches once we become sons that we no longer serve the Lord.---kathr4453

I am glad I was able to teach you this fact. You are most welcome.

Baptism Spiritual Effects
To become a son/ daughter does not say we no longer serve the Lord. HOW UTTERLY STUPID YOUR COMMENT IS.-Kathr

Excuse me..that utterly stupid comment did not come from me, it came from you. Read your own words below.I was merely trying to make sense of your mental giantess.

Since I've received Jesus Christ, I am a SON and no longer a servant.---kathr4453 on 6/11/19

Baptism Spiritual Effects
You said, you were no longer Gods servant. I was attempting to steer you away from this foolish teaching, by asking a pointed question. You took the point, but you stay on course.

So, I will try some logic.
Do you know who can call Jesus, Lord? .....His servants!!
A servant is not someone who calls him Lord, but is one who makes him doing what he tells them to do?

(Luke 6:46) And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? You call him Lord, but you can not make him Lord because of your No Works Doctrine. Turn from it and follow Jesus, not Jimmy Swaggart.

I am not a Mormon, but I find Truth in multiple denominations. So I guess that makes me a religious Mutt.

Baptism Spiritual Effects
Since I've received Jesus Christ, I am a SON and no longer a servant. ---kathr4453

I fearfully suspected this of the Protestant doctrines, but you are the first to confirm this. I must admit, That does explain your doctrine.

So You were once a follower of Jesus Christ, but then God made you a Son, an heir to his throne. And as an heir, God is no longer your master. Will you also sit at the right hand of God?

Baptism Spiritual Effects
Also read Ezekiel 36. All of it. Prophecied of the NT. Tell many. " IF YOU WILL's" do you capture in that chapter? Now how many "I WILL " ( unconditional ) do you capture?---kathr4453 on 6/10/19

So you believe, Paul was wrong in (Romans 2:5-10)?
But because of thy hardness and impenitence of heart, thou treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of Wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to every man according to his deeds: to those who by patient continuance in welldoing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life...

Baptism Spiritual Effects

I said, Sin separates us from Gods light. I did not say, his love.
(Isaiah 59:2) But your iniquities have separated you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear.

Notice the underscored,...YOUR GOD? Which means, Isaiah said this to Gods children.
Confession of sin removes this separation, this darkness. Confess your sins, and see the difference for yourself.

The greater the darkness, the longer you go without confession of sin, the more noticeable the light will be. It not only reveals sin, but the evil in the world you do not see now. (Isaiah 9:2)

Baptism Spiritual Effects
David are ALL believers still in sin? Or just some? If it's ALL, THEN YOU SAY ROMANS 6 is not one of the PLETHORA of examples ---kathr4453

No, but many are.

The problem with not just yours, but most doctrines, is they align themselves with a few passages, like (Romans 6), which may support their teachings, but ignore the majority of New Testament teachings which refute their doctrines.

For example, I tell you what Jesus taught...and you quote Paul, seemly not realizing you when you do this, you undermine the teachings of Jesus Christ, the very teachings from which Pauls emanated.

And you have no witnesses in the New Testament, which supports what you believe Paul was teaching. When I have many.

God's Grace On Noah
No, if YOU believe Paul replaced Stephen, YOU show scripture stating that fact. But again, your Gnosticism beliefs create beliefs not in scripture. --kathr4453

YOU made the statement, that Scripture was against me. So YOU must have seen scripture showing this evidence. So what Scripture have you seen, showing this irrefutable proof? If you cant, never use the word of God to perpetuate a false statement. (Acts 13: 9-11)

When someone makes accusations against someone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser.

God's Grace On Noah
Scripture shows you are mistaken. Paul did not replace Stephen.---kathr4453

Show me the scriptures Kathryn.

Baptism Spiritual Effects
Your question brought me great sorrow. Sorrow, because God made an incredible relationship with him so simple, and it has become this illogical chasm of doctrines, which most will never get out of.

Baptism and repentance go hand in hand in this relationship. But man has given both words..a plethora of definitions, most of which are dead wrong.

Baptism is simply water Immersion and repentance is turning away from sin. Most folks have been baptized, but were simply not taught how to repent. A believer who is still in sin, must confess sin daily!!!

Because Unconfessed sin separates us from God and his light. This separation leaves us in the dark, so we can not see the sin, we are to turn away from.

God's Grace On Noah
There is not reference of keeping the number at 12. ---Samuelbb7

Thanks for engaging me in this thought, Samuel. Sometimes its just nice to have a conversation with Christians, which shouldnt cause an argument.

(Acts 1:23-26) is a reference. The disciples were eleven, but needed to be made twelve before the Day of Pentecost. After these twelve died they were not replaced, because the Lord only needs the twelve judges. (Luke 22:30)

Paul, as a possible replacement for Stephen, just caught my attention because of what happened in (Acts 1). We dont see this power in the church anymore, the kind of power these men had.

Was Paul the last one given this Authority?

God's Grace On Noah
Stephen was not one of the original apostles needing to be replaced by Paul.---kathr4453

I was pointing out that certain men were given Authority. And when one of these men, who did have this authority, died, as in the case of the Lords disciples, they were replaced by someone else. Always keeping the count at twelve.

Though Stephen was not one of the twelve, he was one who was given authority. And I was just wondering if everyone given this authority, was replaced, as in the case of the disciples. The Lord appears to have replaced Stephen with Paul.

I find that interesting, and was trying to drum up a little constructive conversation, to get away from the argument.

God's Grace On Noah
Has anyone ever noticed in (Acts 1) how when there were eleven disciples, there was a need for twelve, and not thirteen? Why only twelve? (Acts 2:21-26)

It is because only those who were chosen by Jesus Christ, were given the power to baptize folks into the Holy Spirit, like their master...Jesus Christ.
(Acts 1:2) until the day in which He was taken up, after He had given commandments through the Holy Ghost unto the apostles, whom He had chosen.

This is why there are examples of folks receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, before they were baptized in water. But only those who had been given this authority could do this.

I believe Paul replaced Stephen. Interesting read...(Acts 8 & 9).

God's Grace On Noah
No scripture says you must be water baptized to received the Holy Spirit.---kathr4453 on 5/26/19

Instruction given
(Acts 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Action taken
(Acts 2:41) Then those who gladly received his words were baptized, and that same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Looks to me, pretty solid proof Peters instruction to be baptized, meant water baptism. Or was Peter wrong?

Baptism In The Epistles
But do you baptize yourself or merely receive it at the hands of another?

Good question
As I understand it, it doesnt seem to matter. If its a requirement...they consider it a work.

However, works DEMONSTRATE our faith.---StrongAxe

(James 2:22) See thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works faith was made perfect

If we are saved by faith, and Works perfect the faith by which we are saved, can we be saved without Works?

Baptism In The Epistles
If you have to be physically baptized, it throws water onto the No Works doctrines. So in order to make baptism fit into these doctrines, these teachers had to create the baptism you have described.

You see, Salvation under their terms must require nothing from the believer. Somehow they are saved without doing anything, but non believers, who also dont do anything to be saved, are lost.

Being a believer seems to be the key to salvation. But then again...if you must be a believer to be saved, doesnt that make being a believer, a requirement?

God's Grace On Noah
(Mark 1:4) John baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Please take the verse above into your thinking, before criticizing Cluny for his logical thought. Under the Law of Moses, wasn't an animal sacrifice required for the remission of sins?

Since this was obviously not a teaching under the old covenant, is it not fair to assume, John was a teacher of the New covenant? Do you believe God sent John into the wilderness to teach a false doctrine?

God's Grace On Noah
Thank you, that was an Excellent and very honest explanation. And I will make sure I put it in my notes for any dialogue we have in the future. Now I will simplify what I teach.

I see the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as a means, or as a vehicle to receive Gods Grace/favor. For Without his sacrifice, the only sacrifice acceptable to God, there could be no forgiveness of sin. And without this forgiveness, we would remain separated from God (Isaiah 59:2).

This fact is easily proven after we go before God and confess our sins. When forgiven, the separation is removed, and then we can experience this removal, first hand, as we now stand in the light of God.

God's Grace On Noah
My apologies, I forgot you do not define Grace as being in the favor of God. I was merely expounding on that definition through the example of Noah. And had hoped that through that example, you had come to agree with my point.

Since you dont accept that definition, there is no need for us to discuss this.

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