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Right Versus Left
  
Right or Left, it all seems to end up as hate speech. Dont believe me, read your posts. Why dont you folks try talking more about that which unites us, instead of that which divides us. More importantly, who do you suppose creates hate through division? Remember folks, it was a division that caused the war in Heaven. I ask you to just think about it.


(Luke 11:17) Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falleth.


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
David, I got that wrong. The 3rd seal is the judgment of the 144,000 after which they are sealed and the four winds are released.
---barb


Barb
The book of Revelation, without spiritual guidance, is like putting together a picture puzzle, without having the picture. So you are going to be wrong more than you are going to be right. Been there, still doing that.


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
They are the fruits brought in by the 144,000 whose righteous acts are their fine linen, clean and white. Rev. 19:7-8.---barb

Barb
That sounds plausible, and I like your thought process, but the opening of the seven seals in (Revelation 6), is the heavenly account of the Great Tribulation Period which takes place here on Earth. Given sequentially.

And according to (Revelation 7:3-8), the 144,000 are not sealed until after the Great Tribulation period had ended.

Also, I am glad you alerted me to the fact the12 tribes named in Revelation are a bit different from the ones in the Old Testament. Never caught that.


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
Yes, the 144,000 will be killed for their testimony...---barb on 11/22/17

Barb
I believe you may be getting those killed during the tribulation period confused with the 144,000. Please note in the below verse, the Great Multitude no man could Number.
How could these folks, not numbered, be the 144,000 who are numbered?

(Revelation 7:9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
David, how can anyone who does not believe in Jesus, be beheaded for being a witness to Him?-Barb

You misunderstood what I said.
You must be killed, because you believe in Jesus Christ, to be in the 1000 year reign with him.

The 144,000 are God's kingdom on earth purchased from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. Rev. 5:9-10.---barb

If the 144,000 are from every nation, why does the Bible specifically say in (Revelation 7:4), they taken from the twelve tribes of Israel?
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Justice Roy Moore Accusations
  
StrongAxe
Help me to understand your line of thinking.

You believe Roy Moore should not run for the senate because of what he has been accused. But it is okay for Al Franken to remain in the senate, because he has apologized? Or do you believe Al Franken should resign?


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
(Revelation 20) 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Kathryn
Notice in the above verses, believing in Jesus Christ is not the requirement to be in the 1st resurrection, but it is dying because of this belief.
In accordance with verse 5, Do you agree?


Justice Roy Moore Accusations
  
There are actually Republicans who would rather vote for a pervert than a Democrat, and Christians who defend perverts and persecute their accusers (not just Moore, but also other cases).
---StrongAxe on 11/20/17


StrongAxe
Can you explain why Al Franken, a sitting Senator, is not a pervert in your book?

I would think a man who has admitted to his crimes, as Franken has, is more culpable than one who has been accused?

I jumped to the same conclusion about Moore until I listened to the evidence, as if I were sitting on a jury. I just couldnt convict him on the testimony of someone who may have an ulterior motive.

Remember, Jesus was also convicted by folks who gave false testimonies.


Justice Roy Moore Accusations
  
It's horrible the excuses the evangelicals are using to excuse Moores behavior...---kathr4453 on 11/19/17

Kathryn
I agree,....if they are true, but the facts are, we dont know the Truth.
Senator Al Franken has also been accused, but those who accuse Roy Moore are silent about wanting Al Franken to step down. Franken even apologized,..proving his misdeeds.

This proves they hate Moore, not because of his perceived misdeeds, but simply because hes a republican.

If this is not the reason explain this conflicting rush to judgement.


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
David, I'm not sure I understood you. Are you saying the 144,000 in Rev 9 are resurrected Israel being given a second chance? ---kathr4453

Kathryn
Revelation is a very hard book to understand, and it can not be understood without the Holy Spirit to guide us through it.

The Holy Spirit has taught me just enough, it to warn folks who believe in a pre-trib rapture. But as for the rest, without the Holy Spirit, for me its like putting together a 144,000 piece puzzle in the dark.

This topic was started about tithing and somehow ended up in Revelation. So in the little dabbling Ive done recently, yes I think this piece might fit.


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
You asked, why won't the 144,000 also be raptured? I believe those saved during the great Tribulation, will be those who will be alive in their human flesh during the 1000 year reign.Kathryn

Kathryn
I believe we are on the same page here, with this one addition. I believe the 144,000 are not raptured when Jesus comes in (Matthew 24), but the twelve tribes of Israel which will number 144,000, are being brought back to life.

The best I can figure, as to why God chooses 144,000 folks from the twelve tribes of Israel, folks who never had the opportunity to know Jesus as Lord and Savior, is to give them the opportunity to repent and be saved. The twelve tribes of Israel will be given a 1000 Years.


Justice Roy Moore Accusations
  
Personally I find it hard to believe a man who has held public office for so many years, whose enemies throughout those years have gone through his life with a fine tooth comb, is all of a sudden found to be a pervert.

Lies spoken about someone, spoken by their enemies, without any evidence, wouldnt hold up if you sat on a jury in a courtroom. So why does it carry so much weight for those who believe Roy Moore is a pervert?

Its because they allow their hatred to cloud their judgement.


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
The discussion was suffering Christians, and you twisted a verse to make it look like Christians will be TORMENTED BY GOD FOR 5 months. ---kathr4453

Kathryn
It was just an observation. I was making light of the way it was written, and how the verse could be read in the KJV. You corrected one of your posts on 11/14 and I assumed it was because you may have made such an error. I have made them too, which is why I read Revelation using a parallel bible.

Since we are discussing Revelation, thought I would share the advice with you and Barb, the advice I was given and still follow. So the answer is NO, I do not read the verse to say those sealed will be tormented.

And who is Kellyanne Conway?


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
Do you think the 144,000 in Rev 7 and Rev 14 are two different groups? Do you believe that one group is Israel and the other is Gentile? Matt 3:7-10.---barb

Barb
No, I dont believe any of the 144,000 are gentiles. So they would be separate from The gentiles.


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
Actually David, ONLY those without the seal of God are tormented. Why would God torment His own and NOT the ones without the seal? You read that wrong.
---kathr4453

David, what makes you think those in Rev 9 are the 144,000 of Revelation 7 who are about to be sealed by an angel when those in Rev 9 are not sealed? The trumpets don't start until after the sealing.-Barb


Kathryn & Barb
No I read it right, just an observation.
I was showing how it could be read, or preached by someone using only the KJV, Kathryn showing how illogical it was.

This is one book of the Bible Where I find a parallel bible handy. Past generations didnt have this advantage, and thats probably why we have so many opposing views.


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
(Revelation 9:4-5) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads And to them it was given, that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Kathryn & Barb
Have either of you ever noticed, in the above verses, the 144,000 are to be tormented for five months?


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
Kathryn
I gave you (Matthew 24:29) and (Revelation 6:12-13), to show you they are the very same event. To also show this same event taking place, as written in (Revelation 6), tells us that Jesus comes for his elect when the sixth seal is opened.

But in (Revelation 7) we can see the 144,000 are being sealed, not raptured. Proving the elect being gathered in (Matthew 24: 31) are the gentiles, not those being sealed.

In (Revelation 9:4), we can see those who were sealed, are still on Earth when Gods Wrath is being delved out. Though Gods seal protects them from this Wrath.

Still do not know why the 144,000 are not raptured when Jesus comes for his elect. Any thoughts as to why?


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
The problem ..the real center of this issue is many fail to grasp the CHURCH is Not Israel. If you don't believe that they are two entirely different entities, you will never get It.---kathr4453

Kathryn
I agree, and because of this difference it helps us to gain a better understanding of Revelation. Lets not argue about who the elect are, lets let the Bible tell us to end all argument. To do this we must look for the common denominators. One is found in (Matthew 24:29) and in (Revelation 6:12-13).

Do you agree these are the same events?


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
The Great Tribulation is the wrath of God....
---kathr4453

(Matthew 24:29-31)KJV, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Romans 5:9) KJV, Tells us.....we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Kathryn
How could Jesus save us from the Wrath of God if he comes for us after the Great Tribulation period, ...if the wrath and the tribulation periods are one and the same?


Under The Law Of Tithing
  
But somehow you accuse those who believe in a Rapture as disobedient having no discernment? ---kathr4453

Kathryn
Accusing no, warning yes. Jesus gave the same warning in (Matthew 15:4) And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch..

I create my questions to show how illogical the false doctrines are. If those who follow these teachings can see the illogic, they may just turn and seek the Truth.



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