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Is Jesus God
//Hebrews 1//- John 9346.

Paul is not identifying Jesus with anyone in Hebrews 1. Rather, Paul describes the qualities Jesus has as one worthy to "sit at God's right hand"- Heb.1:13.

Jesus has the WISDOM of his Father, Jehovah. That's why Paul quoted Ps.102:25-27 and applied it to Jesus (Heb.1:10-12). The Hebrew speaking Christians would have understood that.

Jesus also has the WISDOM of wise King Solomon. That's why Paul quoted 2 Sam.7:14 (Heb.1:5). The Hebrew speaking Christians would have understood that too.

Paul then begs the question, "To which of the angels did God ever say, "Sit at my right hand..."?- Heb.1:13

Only one Angel can do that!- 1 Thess.4:16.

Is Jesus God
//Heb 1 contradicts you vs 5, 6, and 8//- John9346.

It certainly contradicts and confuses John9346.

If we apply John9346 bizarre logic at Hebrews 1, and believe Jesus & Jehovah are one and the same, we must also believe Solomon and Jesus are also one and the same.

Hebrews 1:5b quotes from 2 Samuel 7:14 and is applied to Jesus. Although that text had its first application to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Unless you want to follow John9346 peculiar logic.

Jesus is not Solomon anymore than he is Jehovah. John9346, like Strongaxe, have removed, inserted & twisted scripture so much they can no longer see beyond their trinity dogma!

Is Jesus God
//firstborn means preeminace [sic]//- John9346.

If "firstborn" means 'pre-eminence', why are the Father and the holy spirit not also "the firstborn of all creation"? It is only applied to the Son.

The expression "the firstborn of" occurs nearly 30 times, and in each scriptural case when applied to living beings the same meaning applies- the firstborn is part of the group. "The firstborn of Israel" is one of the sons of Israel, "the firstborn of Pharaoh" is one of Pharaohs family.

What, then, causes trinitarians to ascribe a different meaning to 'firstborn' at Col.1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof?

Is Jesus God
//changing passages to please their readers//- Michael.

Which is exactly what your trinitarian translators have done. They add words at 1 John 5:7 and have removed God's name in all 6828 places in the OT to please readers like yourself.

//Their leader was a false leader//

Your leader Pagan Roman Emperor Constantine who spun your trinity dogma is no saint! Constantine's pagan trinity has led you into antichrist teaching, spouting "Jesus was God and He cannot die".

You deny the death of Jesus Christ and you deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Yours is a false doctrine and a false gospel!

Is Jesus God
//you would not feel the need to add words//- Strongaxe.

You must be thinking of trinitarians adding words at 1 John 5:7 or removing words 6828 times from the Bible.

//one should not listen to that prophet//

Of course trinitarians have only prophesied war and destruction. If strongaxe had been alive in the years 1914-18 or 1939-1945 his life expectancy would have been a matter of months! Strongaxe trinitarian priests on both sides sent young men and women to their un-timely deaths.

Like Christ's apostles, JW's on the other hand were looking out for Jesus' coming. I'd rather keep on the watch for Christ's return than be involved with trinitarian war-mongering!

The trinity creates prophets of war & death!

Is Jesus God
//based on twisting scripture//- Strongaxe.

And I have shown where trinitarians have removed words from the Bible, at least 6828 times by removing God's name. And twisting scripture, namely lyingly and deceitfully inserting words at 1 Jo.5:7! Oh... pot, kettle, black... back at you.

All this trinitarian deceit to support pagan Emperor Constantine's pathetic pseudo trinity dogma. There is a reason why Constantine's church was called the "Roman" Catholic Church! Where pagan Rome ended, pagan RCC took over with its pagan trinity teaching!

JW's believe what the Bible teaches. Jesus died and was raised on the 3rd day, thus Jesus is not God because God is eternal and cannot die.

Is Jesus God
//JW teaching Jesus both is and is not an angel//
- Strongaxe.

That is not JW teaching.

What strongaxe should be more concerned about is unravelling the pagan trinity confusion, perhaps even abandoning it. If Jesus is "God":

1. How can "God" die? God is eternal!

2. Who resurrected "God" on the 3rd day? (Mt.16:21, 17:22, 20:19, 27:64)

3. Why is the holy spirit never referred to as "God"?

The simple answer: Pagan Roman Emperor Constantine's trinity dogma just doesn't fit into scripture. Unless of course you're a trinitarian "remove, insert and twist" translator!

"Remove, insert and twist" must be the trinitarian mantra!

Is Jesus God
//Paul is contradicting himself//- John9346.

No, John9346 is the one floundering in contradictions.

Again... the Bible teaches that Jesus died and was raised on the 3rd day, thus Jesus is not God because God is eternal and cannot die.

If Jesus is 'God' as John9346 thinks Heb.1:10-12 says, then John9346 denies the death & resurrection of Christ on the 3rd day.

Paul applied Ps.102:25-27 to Jesus because Paul said elsewhere that the Son is the one through whom Jehovah performed creative works- Col.1:15,16.

God said, "Let us make man..." (Ge.1:26). Who was God talking to? Another God? Or his Son who was also involved in 'laying the foundations of the earth'? (Pr.8:27-30, Heb.1:10)

Is Jesus God
//No scripture says "Jesus" was another name for Michael//- kathr4453.

No scripture says "Jesus is God".

No scripture says "God the Son".

No scripture says "trinity".

No scripture says "God the holy spirit".

No scripture says "the holy spirit is God".

No scripture says "Jesus was God incarnate".

What scripture does say is, "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven... with the voice of the archangel"- 1 Thess.4:16. (NIV) A future time when the resurrection starts.

Trinitarians cannot provide one shred of scriptural evidence for pagan Emperor Constantine's trinity dogma!

Is Jesus God
//That is EXACTLY what can be said//- Strongaxe.

I agree, it's deceitful of trinitarians to insert words into the Bible to push pagan Constantine's trinity dogma, eg. at 1 John 5:7.

I can understand Strongaxe bluster at NWT's legitimate use of "other" at Col.1:16. Afterall, trinitarians must have spent ages removing the 6828 occurences of God's name [YHWH], and inserting words at 1 Jo.5:7.

Then along comes the NWT, legitimately uses "other" at Col.1:16 and in doing so, that one word completely destroys the reason why trinitarians removed God's name 6828 times in the first place!

One word and the work of corrupt trinitarian translators comes crashing down! Brilliant! (Can you hear me laughing!?)

Is Jesus God
//Now I'm confused//- Strongaxe.

So strongaxe is confused with the Bible teaching that Jesus was "made flesh" and "was made lower" than the angels? Does Strongaxe no longer believe Jesus left heaven and came to the earth "in the flesh"? When did Strongaxe stop believing that?

In the context of what I said:

"Jesus was made flesh, a human being when on earth... Jesus was not an angel neither was he God!"

The context of Heb.2:5-9 confirms this truth- for Jesus to come to earth, he had to be "made lower than angels".

I suppose as trinitarians have altered, inserted and removed scripture over 6828+ times, I am not surprised Strongaxe is confused.

Is Jesus God
//Angels can't die either//- kathr4453.

Jesus was neither God nor angel when he died. Jesus was made flesh, a human being when on earth.

Heb.2:7, "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels" (ASV).

Heb.2:9, "But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels... so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone". (NIV)

Jesus was not an angel neither was he God! Why? Because as scripture tells us above! Jesus was made lower than angels so that he could "taste death for everyone". Jesus was not God nor an angel because Jesus died! He was "made flesh" in order to be sacrificed and "tasted death" for 3 days!

Is Jesus God
//whenever they [Jews] saw YHWH//- Strongaxe.

Yes we all know what the Jews do when they come across God's name [YHWH]. But at least the Jews are not guilty of removing God's name from the Hebrew text.

The blatant difference is trinitarians deceitfully remove God's name from their Hebrew OT scriptures all 6828 times.

//KJV... YHVH in small caps//

It's my understanding that KJV capitalised GOD or LORD when it removed God's name, but use "JEHOVAH" in only 7 verses (eg. at Ps.83:18). The NewKJV removes YHWH completely.

//NWT... inserted words in [brackets]//

Which is more than can be said for trinitarian inserted words (eg.1 Jo.5:7 et al).

Is Jesus God
//I didn't quote John//- strongaxe.

I didn't say you did. I quote John to show the hypocrisy of your argument. You took issue with my use of Col.1, erroneously claiming NWT is "disingenuous".

I cite Jo.1:1 and 1 Jo.5:7 to show real disingenuous trinitarian translation.

//Trinitarians don't insert words that aren't there into John 1:1//

But they do at 1 Jo.5:7. And trinitarians ignore Greek grammar & context at Jo.1:1 for the sake of their pagan dogma.

//Nobody should be "removing" anything from Scripture//

Which is what trinitarians do by removing God's name [YHWH, "Yahweh" or "Jehovah"] from the Hebrew [OT] scriptures 6828 times and insert GOD or LORD instead!

Is Jesus God
//The Spirit of God within Jesus was God and He cannot die//- Michael.

Conclusive proof trinitarians do not believe the death & resurrection of Christ! "Jesus was God and He cannot die" are Michael's exact words! Why are you guy's putting up with this antichrist pagan trinity dogma!?

Michael says Jesus' physical body died... but Jesus carried on living because "he cannot die". So who does Michael believe was dead for 3 days!? Who does Michael believe was raised on the 3rd day!?

//If you do not believe... then your faith is found in someone else//

So why Michael do you not believe Jesus died & was dead 3 days and was resurrected!? (Mt.16:21, Lu.9:22, Acts 10:40)

Is Jesus God
//disingenuous//- strongaxe.

An example of trinitarian disingenuous translation at John 1:1.

"kai ho logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos".

"and the Word was with the God, and god was the Word".

Note the 2 occurences of "theo" [god]. One has the definite article, the other without. A small but significant aspect of Greek grammar.

The key is understanding that the Word is "with" God [pros ton theon]. The Word cannot be the God it is "with". Thus, context and grammar demand the indefinite article: "the Word was a god".

Trinitarians ignore context & grammar as it contradicts their trinity dogma.

Is Jesus God
//applying Ps. 45:6//- John9346.

JW's start with the premise that Jesus died and was raised on the 3rd day, thus Jesus is not God because God is eternal and cannot die.

John9346 must therefore be wrong in his understanding of Heb.1:8. And he is!

Hebrews 1:8 quotes from Ps.45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel- likely Solomon. Obviously, the Bible writer of this psalm did not think that this king was Almighty God. Rather, Ps.45:6, in RS, reads "Your divine throne." (NE says, "Your throne is like God's throne." JP [verse 7]: "Thy throne given of God.")

Thus, God is the Originator and Giver of this throne to Solomon and Jesus. (Dan.7:13,14 & Luke.1:32)

Is Jesus God
//disingenuous//- strongaxe.

All trinitarian translations disingenuously add or remove words within the Biblical text to suit trinitarian theology. 1 Jo.5:7 and John 1:1 come to mind.

JW's start with the premise that Jesus was dead 3 days, thus Jesus is not God because God is eternal and cannot die.

On the matter of "other" at Col.1 whether it's there or not doesn't change the fact that all things were created "through" Jesus. Let's take "other" out... I don't mind.

"All things have been created through him and for him" (NIV agrees).

Using "other" (Gr.word panta allows for) completely removes the pagan trinity from scripture.

Is Jesus God
//Paul is a pagan??//- john9346.

No, Paul applied Ps.102:25-27 to Jesus because Paul said elsewhere that the Son is the one through whom Jehovah performed the creative works.

"All other things have been created through him and for him"- Col.1:15,16.

If john9346 wants to believe the pagan 'egypto' trinity then he can crack on. What I would like to know from trinitarians is who was dead for 3 days?

"...on the 3rd day be raised up"- Mt.16:21, 17:22, 20:19, 27:64.

"... that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day"- Lu.24:46.

God cannot die, He is eternal. So who was dead 3 days? God or Christ? Can't be both!

Is Jesus God
//trinity is used to understand God's Revelation//- john9346.

It's laughable that trinitarians think their trinity dogma is somehow exclusive to their belief. Far from it! Pagans have always worshipped the trinity as seen in ancient pagan Egypt & Babylon.

Pagan Constantine incorporated Plato's Hellenic philosophies into the emerging Christian religion.

The Encyclopdia Britannica says: "Christian theology took the Neoplatonic metaphysics of substance as well as its doctrine of [essences, or natures- Gr.'homoousios'] as the departure point for interpreting the relationship of the 'Father' to the 'Son'".

Fuse pagan trinities with Platonic philosophy and you have Christendom's "trinity".

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