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Conflicting Christians Opinions
  
//Heb 1:5 isn't a "Direct Quotation."//- john9346.

Well we must remember when Paul was quoting from the Hebrew scriptures, it wasn't "Samuel chapter 7 verse 14". They didn't have chapter and verse in Pauls day. So to say he didn't quote the "whole verse" is an obscure line of reasoning. Paul is quoting what he saw in the scroll of Samuel... not a verse.

And of course the Hebrew speaking Christians in Pauls day would have been familiar with the prophetic reference from the scroll of Samuel. Jesus did compare himself to Solomon- Lu.11:31.

"and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son"- 2Sam.7:13,14, Heb.1:5b. (NIV).


Conflicting Christians Opinions
  
MarkEaton! I'm speechless! Thank you for your concern. Is this really you? That's what I call a Christian post. I congratulate you for your honesty and humility.

Please also accept my humble apologies if I have in the past ever given you a hard time. I do know we disagree quite passionately on many issues but ultimately we do believe in the God of the Bible and that Christ is our saviour.

Faith and belief in the scriptures is both an intellectual and emotional process. Our emotions can run away with us on occasion and we are all imperfect. So we do say things we may later regret. And even I sometimes forget that there is another human being the other end of the 'blogosphere'.

I give you my kind regards.


Conflicting Christians Opinions
  
//Ps.102:25, Heb 1:10//- john9346.

Again john9346 stretches and twists scripture to fit his pagan trinity dogma.

First, Hebrews 1 speaks of Father and Son.

Is the Father also the Son? No, because the Son is the one through whom God performed creation as described by the psalmist. (Col.1:15, 16, Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.)

Also, note the quote at Hebrews 1:5b. This is a quote from 2 Samuel 7:14 and is applied to the Son of God. Although that text is applied first to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus Christ does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is "greater than Solomon" and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon- Luke 11:31.

The Son is not God anymore than he is Solomon.


Conflicting Christians Opinions
  
"Listen to what Luke states", john9346.

Notice john9346 doesn't quote Acts 5:9. Because it clarifies what Luke is saying. The holy spirit is not "God", but is "OF" God. Small word but makes a huge difference.

Of course lying to the holy spirit is lying to God. The holy spirit is "of" God and is sent by God to carry out his will on earth. Anyone working against the works of the holy spirit is thus working against God. Anyone lying against the holy spirit is thus lying against God. But that doesn't mean the holy spirit is God.

The notion that the holy spirit is "God" was not official "church" doctrine until 381AD. Why? Because it is not a Bible teaching.


Conflicting Christians Opinions
  
Luke writing by the Holy Spirit disagrees with you... john9346.

Luke does not call the holy spirit "God" anywhere in his Gospel or in Acts. John9346 must stretch his belief and twist what Luke says to fit his pagan-Athanasian creed. John9346 omits Acts 5:9 which says Ananias tested "the spirit of Jehovah". The holy spirit is not 'Jehovah'... it is "of" or from Jehovah.

It wasn't until 381AD, some 300 years after Luke that john9346's pagan "church" erroneously decided to make the holy spirit "God". Not because scripture says so, but because pagan Trinitarians Constantine and Athanasius wanted it.


Conflicting Christians Opinions
  
//the culture and background of the Athanasian creed and why it was written??// john9346.

Athanasius was Pagan Roman Emperor Constantines sycophant.

In partnership with Pagan Emperor Constantine during the 4th Century, Athanasius and his cohorts dreamed up the unbiblical "Athanasian creed", a complete departure from truth and a headlong descent into pagan apostasy declaring 'Jesus is God'.

That was the 1st Council of Nicea in 325AD. It took these apostates years to decide who should be the 3rd person of the trinity. Not until 381AD did they decide who in their view should be the 3rd head of the trinity god.

The holy spirit wasn't "God" before 381AD. And Jesus wasn't "God" before 325AD!


How To Worship God
  
//'Ego eimi'//- MarkEaton.

The Trinitarian claim that 'ego eimi' is another form of God's name. This is absurd trinitarian nonsense.

Are we also to believe Gabriel identified himself as Jehovah at Luke 1:19 when he said, 'I am (ego eimi) Gabriel'?

At Luke 22:33, when Peter said to Jesus, 'I am (ego eimi) prepared to go to prison with you and to death', was Peter saying to Jesus, 'Jehovah is prepared to go to prison with you and to death'? By using 'ego eimi' was Peter also claiming to be Jehovah?

At Mt.26:25, Judas literally said, 'Not I am (ego eimi) Lord?' Are we to believe this really meant Judas was claiming to be Jehovah and Jehovah was going to betray Jesus?


How To Worship God
  
//You are avoiding the question//- MarkEaton.

MarkEaton is too impotent to understand the answer and scriptural reasons given. Look at John 1:1 again:

'kai ho logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos'

'and the Word was with the God, and god was the Word'.

If at John 1:1 'kai theos en ho logos' [and god was the Word], stood on its own, then there would be grounds for assuming that 'the Word was God'. But that statement is NOT on its own.

John has already stated 'kai ho logos en pros to theon' [and the Word was with the God]. John could not have been saying the Word is the God he is with.

Unless of course you are a lying MarkEaton trinitarian who doesn't care what the Bible says.


How To Worship God
  
//Now you wish to reason?//- MarkEaton.

You mean you're not going to run away?

I notice MarkE maintains his cloak of secrecy. Obviously he is ashamed of the trinitarian outfit he belongs to. All trinitarian groups are cloaked with secrecy.

//The only construction available to John was what is being translated by everyone//- MarkEaton.

No, not everyone. Only trinitarians abuse the sentence structure and the context of John 1:1. The Word is "with" God. John does not then state the Word is the God he is "with". Using 'theos' without the definite article after having just identified the Word as being "with the God" [pros ton theon], means the Word is not God but "a god".


How To Worship God
  
//You do do not apply your single article rule when the same construction occurs... Why?//- MarkEaton.

Context MarkEaton, context!

No one is saying that when 'theos' or 'theon' appear without the definite article that they should always be translated as "a god". Context should always be taken into consideration.

In John 1:1, the Word is "with the God" [pros ton theon]. Many translators not just JW's recognise that in the context of being "with the God" [ton theon] the apostle John does not then go on to say that the Word is the God he is "with".

Thus the use of the indefinite 'theos' in contrast to 'ton theon', the God the Word is "with".


How To Worship God
  
//you cannot show ONE Greek NT manuscript that has the Divine Name in it//- MarkEaton.

MarkEaton cannot show ONE original Greek NT manuscript that does not have the Divine Name in it!

Jesus said in prayer to God, 'I have manifested thy name' (Jo.17:6, KJV). MarkEaton and trinitarians at large over the centuries have systematically removed God's name in complete ignorance of what Jesus accomplished.

And anyway, MarkEaton's complaint about the NT is laughably hypocritical because the Divine name's appearance in OT manuscripts is without question. And yet his pagan trinity translators refuse to include God's name anywhere in their OT translations not because it isn't there, but for false doctrinal reasons.


How To Worship God
  
//the other person just cannot see reason//- Strongaxe.

My point exactly.

I've given plenty reasons why many, not just JW's translate John 1:1 the way they do- ie. "a god". I accept you disagree with this.

The reason being is that the two occurrences of 'theos' at Jo.1:1 are different in that only one has the definite article. And the Word is "with" that one.

The Word is not "the God". The Word is "with the God" [pros ton theon]. The Word is "a god" [theos en ho logos]. The same principle is used at Acts 28:6 where people thought Paul was "a god".

Rather than reason on the matter, MarkEaton screams "liar" and storms off in a huff.


How To Worship God
  
bested in debates ... MarkEaton.

I've torn MarkEaton apart on a number of occasions.

I've ripped his ideology apart so much MarkEaton has thrown his toys out of his pram and run with his tail between his legs. He cannot argue against the truth of how John 1:1 is written so the only pathetic tactic he has left in his bag is to lie about the NWT. What a squalid little man MarkEaton is.

The only person clothed in secrecy is MarkEaton who hides which pagan trinitarian outfit he belongs to.

The NWT is not clothed in secrecy. Its available online and distributed worldwide in over 110 languages. And yes, the NWT does remove the pagan assault trinitarians have brought on God's word.


How To Worship God
  
//The Jerusalem Bible... does use "Yahweh"//- Strongaxe.

Yes you're right it does in some cases, but not in every place where the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH appears.

Even the original KJV used "JEHOVAH" in 7 places most noteably Psalm 83:18. Newer versions of the KJV have removed 'Jehovah' altogether.

Most modern trinitarian versions omit God's name completely. Can Trinitarian translators be called "scholars" if they knowingly mis-translate God's name for biased doctrinal reasons?

The use of "other" at Col.1:16 is in full harmony with the context and the Greek. Even without [other], it still reads all things were created "through" Jesus.


How To Worship God
  
//translated by unlearned, untaught, cultist translators with a predetermined bias//

MarkEaton is really referring to his trinitarian mis-translations.

Where does the word "trinity" appear in the Bible?

Where does it say "God the Son"?

Where does it say "God the holy spirit"?

Why does MarkEaton's trinitarian Bibles omit using God's name either Yahweh or Jehovah? Adonai or kyrios [Lord] are not suitable substitutes for YHWH. MarkEaton's "scholars" remove God's name because of their cult trinitarian bias.

The NWT does not support any of MarkEaton's scriptural lies and deceit.


How To Worship God
  
//Explain, the word, (God) is translated as a god in John 1:1//- John9346 (1/16/17).

It's a trinitarian tactic to confuse by deceit and subterfuge. Trinitarian john9346 feigns ignorance with how John 1:1 is written. I'll say it again but slower this time:

The Greek word 'theos' appears twice in different forms at John 1:1. Each occurrence is different. One has the definite article, one does not.

'kai ho logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos'

'and the Word was with the God, and god was the Word'.

The Word is "with the God" [pros ton theon]. Note the def.article 'ton'.

The Word was "a god" [theos en ho logos]. Note no def.article with 'theos'.


How To Worship God
  
//For my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of armies himself!//-john9346 quoting Isaiah 6:5.

Isaiah saw a vision of God, not that he physically saw God on his throne. Does john9346 believe that God literally sits on a "lofty and elevated" throne?

Note God asks, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?"- Isaiah 6:8.

Who is God referring to in the "us" of his question? Another God, or perhaps another part of God maybe?

Obviously there is another important individual "with" Jehovah. John identifies who is "with" God at John 1:1, the pre-human Jesus or the Word of God.

Isaiah certainly didn't see a 3 headed trinitarian 'god'.


How To Worship God
  
//the NWT is careful//- MarkEaton.

MarkEaton laughably quotes the rabid trinitarian Ken Baumgarten. Was that pulled from Wikipedia?

How about these ones regarding the NWT:

Edgar J. Goodspeed, translator of the New Testament wrote: "[I am] much pleased with the free, frank and vigorous translation. It exhibits a vast array of sound serious learning, as I can testify".

American Bible Society board member Bruce M. Metzger on NWT: "on the whole, one gains a tolerably good impression of the scholarly equipment of the translators."

Theologian Charles Francis Potter: "[NWT] have certainly rendered the best manuscript texts, both Greek and Hebrew, with scholarly ability and acumen."


How To Worship God
  
//who is John identifying that person to be??//- John9346.

John9346 please type a little bit more carefully as your posts are not making any sense... as does the trinity doctrine.

I think we agree that Isaiah saw Jehovah in vision at Isaiah 6:1-8. The whole thrust of Is.6:1-8 is, 'who will go for Jehovah?' Isaiah answers and says 'Here I am, send me!'

John understands that Jesus is "sent" by Jehovah and therefore applies the prophetic reference found at Isaiah 6:1-8 to Jesus.

Does john9346 believe Jehovah "sent himself"?

Who does john9346 believe was sent by Jehovah in Isaiah chapter 6? Jehovah or Isaiah?

Who does john9346 believe was sent in the apostle John's day? Jehovah or Jesus?


How To Worship God
  
//there are two gods//- MarkEaton.

Continually repeating error as does MarkE doesn't make the error right. Its still wrong!

There is only one God at Jo.1:1, and the Word is with that God. Unlike your false trinitarian versions, the NWT is careful in identifying the fact that it's only the God the Word is with that has the definite article.

When applied to the Word, the NWT realises that 'theos' does not have the def.article. Thus when an anarthrous predicate precedes the verb, the noun ['theos'] describes the Word as "a god". It doesn't identify the Word as the God he is with or even as another "God".

Its you who have 2 Gods: the Word is "God" and is also "with God".



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