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Know Each Other In Heaven
//The four angels are at work here not the Holy Spirit//- ven.

Can I now correct ven. It is the angel from the 'sunrising' who is doing the work described at Revelation 7, not the 4 angels. The angel from the 'sunrising' has come 'with a seal of the living God'. This angel instructs the 4 angels not to harm the earth, "until after we have sealed the slaves of God". The number of those who are sealed is 144,000- Rev.7:2-4.

What is the "seal" from God?

"...set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come"- 2Cor.1:22 (NIV).

"...were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit"- Eph.1:13 (Holman, ESV, NASB)

Know Each Other In Heaven
//does not teach that the 144,000 were sealed by the Holy Spirit//- ven.

So if they're not sealed by holy spirit, what do you believe they are sealed with? Yes they're sealed on the forehead, but with what... wax? Celotape? Superglue? Do you understand what being 'sealed' means?

This is where scripture interprets scripture. I used Eph.1:13,14 to identify not the 144,000, but what they are sealed with.

" were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" (KJV)

"The seal is the Holy Spirit that he promised" (NIRV)

It's my belief the 144,000 are "sealed" on their foreheads by the angel from the 'sunrising' with HS.

If not with holy spirit, then with what are they sealed?

Know Each Other In Heaven
//you can get the answers you desire directly from the believers// David.

Only too pleased to help.


Know Each Other In Heaven
//the 144,000, especially when you consider they have millions of Members//- David.

"Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel... After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count... before the Lamb"- Rev.7:4,9 (NIV).

JW's believe what Revelation 7 teaches- millions will be saved. Revelation 7 clearly points out, there are 2 groups of saved ones: the 144,000, and the great multitude.

The 144,000 are "sealed" by holy spirit (Eph.1:13,14). The great multitude are the ones who "come out of the great tribulation"- Re.7:14.

There are millions of the 'great multitude'.

Celebrating Christmas Day
//NOT that it was ESSENTIAL to address him name//- StrongAxe.

So to use StrongAxe "Howard" analogy, StrongAxe wouldn't use Howards name at all! It's not essential to address God or anyone else by their name!? What stupid logic.

If God didn't want us to use his name, why would he have it recorded in the Bible in the first place?

The person who hates Jehovah and his name is of course Satan. And Satan has used his false religious organisations and his cohorts to make sure God's name has been removed from many translations.

Demonic-cult outfits remove, change and conceal the fact that God has a personal name. StrongAxe is simply a mouthpiece for these cult organisations who play loose and fast with God's name.

Celebrating Christmas Day
//Since it isn't//- Cluny.

So should we stop using 'Jesus'? If 'Jehovah' isn't accurate, neither is using 'Jesus'. The name 'Jesus' is just as inaccurate as 'Jehovah'. Yet I don't see you complaining about using 'Jesus'!

The point of course is what is more recognisable. You and others falsely claim 'adonai' [LORD] is the Hebrew word used at such places like Isaiah 42:8. This is YOUR HENIOUS LIE! The word 'Adonai' doesn't appear in Isaiah 42:8! Stop your lying Cluny!

If your reasoning is, "well no one knows", then we should all stop using 'Jesus'. But of course, your reasoning is a pathetic straw man argument. You don't want God's personal name known because it dismantles your pagan trinity dogma.

Celebrating Christmas Day
I haven't insisted on anything. My issue is why do translators insist on changing and removing God's name when translating from Hebrew to English.

NewKJV has no issue translating Yeshua to Jesus. Why does the NewKJV ( & others) play loose with YHWH? Why does the NewKJV not use Yahweh or Jehovah? They now remove "JEHOVAH" completely from new editions. WHY?

StrongAxe hypocritically points to one word in the NWT ('other' at Col.1:16) when the Bible he promotes plus many others remove and change God's name 6973 times!!

StrongAxe squeezes out the knat ("you use other"), but gulps down the camel by ignoring 6973 deliberate mistakes in trinitarian translations.

Bring Back Christmas
//Jews do it all the time when they read the Tanakh//- Cluny.

But the Jews kept God's name in the text! The issue with the Jews was about pronunciation, not Cluny's remove, change and twist policy.

//The NKJV renders the Hebrew YHVH as "LORD"//

Cluny needs educating as he doesn't know the difference between consonants and vowels. God's name is the Hebrew consonants YHWH. Cluny insists YHWH should be translated as "LORD". Y=L, H=O, V=R and H=D.

A 10 year old could tell you "H" is a consonant and is not equivalent to "O", a vowel.

Clear evidence the translators of the NewKJV deceitfully remove and change God's name. Cluny's insistence I will put down to childish ignorance.

Bring Back Christmas
//The NKJV renders the Hebrew YHVH as "LORD"//- Cluny.

"Lord" is not God's personal name!

Have a look at Isaiah 42:8. Isaiah wrote his book in Hebrew. In verse 8, the Hebrew word "adonai" ['Lord'] does not appear. In verse 8, the Hebrew consonants "YHWH" are found- God's personal name -as the verse states.

Thus, careful scholars will translate this verse:

"I am Yahweh, that is My name" (Holman, WEB, Lexham)

"I am Jehovah, that is my name" (ASV, Darby, Youngs, Byington)

The NewKJV and many other translations remove and change YHWH all 6973 times to 'Lord' when adonai is not the original Hebrew word used.


Celebrating Christmas Day
//Mussolini and Hitler were not practicing any religion//- Cluny.

I haven't said they were practicing any religion. What the RCC is completely guilty of is giving these fascists support and credence. The RCC is absolutely complicit in supporting fascist characters who brought death and misery to millions during the last century.

Like Hitler, Mussolini signed a concordat with the Catholic church because these fascists knew gaining the support of the RCC was imperative to spreading their anti-semitic filth.

If the Jehovah's Witnesses had signed up to these fascist thugs the same way the RCC did, I wonder if Cluny would be so apologetic to the JW's?

Bring Back Christmas
The 2 trinitarians taking issue with God's name complain JW's use 'Jehovah' but then are hypocritically happy to use 'LORD' instead. I'm sure their hypocrisy is clearly evident.

Yes 'Yahweh' is closer to the rendering of YHWH. But everyone is happy with 'Jesus' despite the fact Yeshua is a more correct way. I don't hear StrongAxe complaining about the use of 'Jesus'!

God is not a pronunciation Nazi.

So JW's use of 'Jehovah' for God [YHWH], and 'Jesus' for the Son of God is purely because of people's familiarity with them.

On the other hand, changing God's personal name YHWH to adonai as trinitarians Cluny and StrongAxe advocate is a blatant abuse of scripture.

Bring Back Christmas
//So the Watchtower has created a doctrine//

Another ridiculous statement from StrongAxe.

So the Watchtower wrote these ancient manuscripts in existence today which contain God's personal name Jehovah [YHWH]? Suggesting such a thing would be in the realms of stupidity. The evidence is abundant- ancient manuscripts in existence today contain God's personal name- YHWH. StrongAxe needs to suck it up.

Either StrongAxe is in denial of the truth or he is complicit with the dangerous practice of removing God's personal name, and replacing it erroneously with a title such as adonai or kyrios all 6973 times!

A dangerous practice which anyone engaged in or complicit with must pay heed to Rev.22:19!

Bring Back Christmas
//EVERY SINGLE NT MANUSCRIPT, God is called "Kyrios"//

What everyone should know is that NT manuscripts after the 4th century, God is called kyrios.

None of the original NT manuscripts predating the 4th century exist today. So no one can for any certainty claim that God's name was not in the original NT manuscripts.

What is without question is God's name, Jehovah [YHWH], was in Hebrew manuscripts and in the LXX- some of which can be examined today to prove.

The pagan trinity doesn't work when both God and his son have personal names- Jehovah and Jesus. It is no surprise then that trinitarians airbrush God's name out of the Hebrew and Greek for false doctrinal reasons.

Bring Back Christmas
//the Greek equivalent of YHVH is used nowhere in the NT, or in the LXX.//- Cluny.

Cluny really knows how to get things so badly wrong. God's name- YHWH -did appear in the Septuagint (LXX). Greek writers of Jesus' day did see God's personal name in the Hebrew text- and kept it preserved in the LXX in the form of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton [YHWH]. So how does Cluny know it wasn't used in the NT?

Cluny will deny this fact until the cows come home, but anyone can examine an existing fragment of an early LXX manuscript to see God's name in all it's glory there in the text.

Do a search on: septuagint, Oxyrhynchus, Egypt, job 42:11-12, and click images. See for yourselves.

Cluny's in for a shock!

Celebrating Christmas Day
//RCC making an agreement with Hitler was under duress//- StrongAxe.

Absolute rubbish! That's straight out of the RCC apologists text book.

Throughout history, the Vatican and various high ranking Catholic figures such as Charlemagne, Otto the Great, Napoleon, Mussolini and Hitler have participated in nearly all of Europes bloodiest, most destructive conflicts!

//behaviors OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE//

Well at least JW's refuse to go to war and slaughter their brothers and sisters- unlike some who have shamelessly gone to war and killed members of their own churches!

JW's obey Christ's command to "have [agape] love among themselves"- Jo.13:34,35.

Bring Back Christmas
//God knows what we mean. He is not a Grammar Nazi//- StrongAxe.

God is not a Pronunciation Nazi either.

Yes, both 'Jehovah' and 'Jesus' are inaccurate. That's my point. But everyone accepts 'Jesus' as meaning God's son. Similarly 'Jehovah' is widely accepted as the personal name of the Almighty God. Pronunciation Nazi's will insist otherwise.

What Jehovah does care about is the complete removal of His name from Bible translations when it is blatantly in the original text. StrongAxe gulps down the camel, ignoring the fact that trinitarian translators have removed God's name all 6973 times and squeezes out the gnat as to how God's name should be pronounced.

Everyone can see the ridiculousness of StrongAxe argument!

Bring Back Christmas
//I was confirming what the tradition has been for thousands of years before Christ//- StrongAxe.

StrongAxe is suffering delusions of grandeur as he has no idea how God's personal name was pronounced 1000's years before Christ!

"Jehovah" is a valid name for YHWH just as "Jesus" is for YESHUA. Which is probably why the King James Bible uses JEHOVAH at Psalms 83:18 and in 4 other places. But StrongAxe ignores the central point- it's not the pronunciation of YHWH- it's using and recognising God's name rather than subsituting it 6973 times with an appellative title like "Lord". 6973 deceitful errors!

If 'Jehovah' is wrong, so is 'Jesus'.

Celebrating Christmas Day
//some Catholics followed Hitler. Therefore, Trinitarian theology is evil//- StrongAxe.

I have not said this at all.

StrongAxe misnomer that it was "some Catholics". No!! It was the Catholic Hierarchy that gave the Nazi regime legitimacy. There is a case for collective responsibility here. It was not a case of RCC leaders denouncing Hitler while "some Catholics" supported him. That's StrongAxe fallacy. It was RCC policy from the Vatican down that supported Hitler while "some Catholics" denounced him.

If RCC leaders had been practicing true Christian teachings of love rather than false teachings (like the trinity), I'm sure we would all have been spared WWII (Jo.13:34,35).

Bring Back Christmas
//many anti trinity people have told be I am going to hell//- Samuelbb7.

They certainly were not JW's.

JW's do not believe in "hell" where false religion teach people burn for eternity and use the threat of "hell" to extort money from the laity.

Hellfire is not a Bible teaching and not taught or used as a threat by JW's.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jehovah God is a just and loving God. The thought of burning people in fire is something detestable to Him- Jer.7:31, 1Jo.4:8.

Celebrating Christmas Day
//NOTHING in Trinitarian theology itself that teaches slaughter//- StrongAxe.

They certainly did not teach love during the 2 World Wars!

Anyone only has to look up Hitler and Catholic priests on any internet search, click on images and you will find an array of pictures from the 2nd World War of trinitarians dressed up as Catholic priests sucking up to the Nazi leader Hitler, even giving him the Nazi salute.

There were trinitarian (Catholic and Protestant) Chaplains and padre's blessing troops on both sides! It was important for Satan's political system to have false religion on board to send the masses to war.

There was no Christian "love" shown by trinitarians (Jo.13:34,35).

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