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Gifts Of The Holy Spirit Today
  
You can't go to the end of a book, read the last page and get a total revelation of what the author was talking about. The subject of the Holy Ghost is the same. You can't quote a scripture or two from Corinthians, Galatians, or any other epistle without knowing the Apostles Doctrine (outlined in the book of Acts). In Paul's writings he calls them the "church" that means they had like faith, that they believed and obeyed what was preached to them PRIOR to receiving the letter. What was preached? Repentance, and baptism of the water and of the spirit. Ask yourself this why would Paul preach something in the book of Acts then contradict himself in an epistle? It doesnt make sense.


Gifts Of The Holy Spirit Today
  
Rob, what is it with you and this Molecular Structure Transformation and how it was manifested? I am a college educated woman and even I have no idea how this relates to the subject at hand. Perhaps you can break it down further so that we all can understand what you are referring to. I may be entirely wrong but sometimes it seems as though you like throwing out big words and concepts just to trip people up or to cause some sort of embarrassment to others on the blog. It comes off as condescending at times.

So please break it down for ME - I'd love to know what you are talking about.


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Rob: Sounds like you've had a bad experience with some preachers - that's too bad. Any Preacher (no mater what denomination) who distorts the Word of God is not a preacher sent from God and will be punished for leading people astray. People should not blindly say "Amen" to whatever they hear, they have to make sure that what the preacher is saying is true. I thank God for my Pastor who preaches straight from the bible and leaves his opinions out of it! I also hope that you can put your negative thoughts about these preachers behind and listen to what Batieste and I have to say with an open mind - because like it or not, it is truth.


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Mark V: It sounds like you also had a bad experience with a Pentecostal church. That's really a shame. I don't know if it was an Apostolic persuasion like the one I attend, but nonetheless, they were in error if they didn't let you ask any questions. If you were asking them in a respectful way, there is no reason why your concerns shouldn't have been addressed. Hearing about what you and Rob have gone through makes me sad. That is why it is so important to have a Pastor/teacher who is led by the Spirit and teaches the Word of God straight from the bible. I praise God that my church is led by a man who does both.


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Rob: What you wrote about the Apostolic preacher who taught that Jesus committed suicide breaks my heart. It is 100% in error, on this we can agree on. I only request that you don't let this skew your view of what Batieste and I are trying to say to you. We only come at you with scriptures - what that preacher allegedly said was not biblically based. Just as I'm sure you wouldn't say that all Catholic priests are child molesters, I'm sure you would agree that all Apostolics do not agree with the message that was given by that preacher.


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Rob, I didn't forget that scripture I totally agree with it! I'm not sure what I said that makes you think that I don't. In any case, I think you and I are getting our signals crossed on the word "change" what I mean by there is no change in baptism is that it is still necessary for salvation today. The scriptures you pointed out to me are correct some people were baptized first then received the Holy Ghost, others got the Holy Ghost first and then were baptized. It doesn't matter what order these two come in as long as you get them!


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Rob: I never said that Jesus baptized anyone, and I agree that Paul did say that he did not come to baptize with water, but to share the Gospel. BUT that doesn't equate to us not having to be water baptized. If you read verses 14-16 of 1 Corinthians Paul clearly states that he DID baptize some people in the Corinthian church. So he must have believed in the necessity of being baptized. If you read verses 11-17, it shows that there was a division in the Church that Paul was trying to squash. The Corinthians were dividing themselves up into factions based upon who baptized them. Paul was telling them that this is wrong and we are all to follow Christ.


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Rob: When quoting the bible it's important to know who the writer was speaking to otherwise scriptures can be misinterpreted. All of the epistles were written to people who were preached the gospel (baptism and Holy Ghost) PRIOR to receiving those letters. The Apostles were men led of God so why would they preach one thing in the book of Acts then turn around and preach something else in an epistle? The book of Acts is a guideline for the Church and we are still bound by those teachings. Here's a quote from a study bible that says it all: "This book (Acts) may be studied to gain an understanding of the principles that ought to govern the church of ANY age."


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Rob: Batieste is correct, the book of Corinthians was written to people who were already baptized in Jesus' name and filled with the Holy Ghost, that is why he called them the "church". As a student of the bible I'm sure you know that the book of Acts (written by Luke) contains the first 30 years of the history of the church. There it recounts Paul's missionary work in Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus, and so on. So when he wrote the epistles to these various churches it is important to remember that he already shared the gospel with them and they obeyed it. As such in the letters he wrote to them later he did not have to repeat these commands they already obeyed them.


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Rob, let's forget the scriptures for a moment. What is it exactly that you are trying to say about baptism? Are you saying that we are no longer obligated to be baptized? That the Holy Ghost (speaking in tongues) is no longer necessary? I'm curious...


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Rob: I digested the scriptures you suggested, but I dont get what you are trying to prove with them. NONE of them say that we who are living now dont have to be baptized. The last covenant change was when Jesus ascended to heaven and sent his Spirit down on the day of Pentecost, from that day forward to enter His Kingdom we have to obey the following: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off. Notice the words TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF. (PT 1)


Baptist Versus Pentecostal
  
Bruce: You say the problem is a group that believes that there is only one way to be saved is the problem? No, the problem is people who think that they don't have to follow the instructions God left for us is the problem. Those who think it doesn't take "all that" to be saved those who use their earthly intellect to decipher the Word of God instead of taking it at face value.
The bible gives us clear instructions on how to be saved. Again I quote John 3:5:
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. John (NIV). That is a very clear statement from God himself.


Baptist Versus Pentecostal
  
Bruce: God is the Potter and we are the clay, if he says that we are required to be water baptized and to be filled with the Holy Spirit in order to enter His Kingdom, who are we to dispute that? Our flesh may not like all the things that God requires of us, intellectually we may not understand it, but we are still required to obey. God did not say you can pick and choose how to enter into His Kingdom, he said that we MUST be born of the water and of the spirit. "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life" Matthew 7:14 Remember: Wide is the gate that leadeth to destruction. Matt 7:13


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Bruce: I take the comment that people who are apostolic or oneness are in a cult in the spirit in which it was written an insult. Not only an insult to me but to God. The bible itself says that there is only ONE Lord, ONE FAITH, ONE baptism. Sounds like God believes in oneness Himself. I cant speak for the UPC or any other church than the one I attend, but I guarantee that there is no following of the party line or any man-made traditions. My Pastor speaks directly from the bible, not from his opinion. Until you humble yourself to receive the truth you will be like the people Paul spoke of in Romans, professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Rob: I am not ignoring your post. I will try to read the scriptures you requested that I read today and get back with you tomorrow. I look forward to answering your questions with the TRUTH that only God's Spirit can reveal.


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  

Bruce: You said you would think that if baptism were essential for salvation Paul would have told these people that while they did not need to be circumcised, they did not need to be baptized. The book of Galatians was written AFTER Pauls missionary journeys as noted in the book of Acts. Acts is the history of the church, it teaches us that the disciples were on one accord and that they preached the necessity of water baptism and being filled with the Holy Ghost wherever they went. So in essence Paul was preaching to the choir. They had already obeyed the command in Acts 2:38, so no need to remind them of it.


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Rob, what Bruce wrote isnt a mystery, it is inaccurate. 2 Corinthians 4:3 (which Paul wrote) says if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. In Chapter 2 vs 10 he says that God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. The mystery was once lost to me, but since I have been saved according to Act 2:38 and John 3:3, it is no longer hidden to me or anyone else who is truly born of the water and of the spirit.


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Bruce: thank you for making my point for me. That scripture you keep quoting to me and Batieste proves our point. Being born once (out of your mothers womb) is not enough for salvation. God requires us thru baptism (water) and of the Holy Ghost (Spirit) to become born again in order to enter into his Kingdom. The person who only experiences a fleshly birth is of the flesh, but the person who experiences the new birth (water baptism, Holy Ghost) is of the Spirit and belongs to God. There is no hidden meaning, there are no loop holes: it means what it means and it says what it says.


Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking
  
Bruce: Your statement that a group of saved people got baptized doesnt make any sense. If they were already saved why would they need to be re-baptized? John 3:3 clearly states that unless a man be born of the water AND of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Translation: unless we go thru this process we are not saved. How can you say that this is false teaching when it is the Word of God? The Word isnt here for us to reanalyze and to twist into what we want it to mean. "Just read it as it is", and have childlike faith. Only then will the true meaning of the scriptures be revealed



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