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How To Rebuke Evil
  
Trav:

You wrote: Might start making notes why I post Israels Scripture. Their Book, Prophets, Messiah and Apostles. Real simple.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with YOU, since you admitted that you have no idea whether you are part of Israel or not - and you keep insisting that the New Covenant applies to Israel ONLY, so you don't even know if it applies to you at all. So again, why is this so important to YOU?

THEIR Book, Prophets, Messiah, and Apostles, but by your own admission, not YOURS.


Church Today In Apostasy
  
David:

Jesus came to redeem us from the curse of sin and death. Yet Christians still die, and have been for 2000 years. This means our redemption from death is NOT completed during our lifetime. Why assume his redeeming us from sin is instantaneous, yet his redeeming us from death is obviously not?

Why would the Church need and have mechanisms for dealing with sin and apostasy in its midst, if all of these things were instantaneously done away with the moment one was saved? The reason is that these things are NOT instantaneously done away with the moment one is saved.

Again, how many Christians do you know personally who have never sinned even once, from the day they were saved until their dying day?


How To Rebuke Evil
  
Trav:

I never said Luke was an apostle. He was a Greek physician. He was not an apostle, but he DID write the Gospel of Luke, and the Acts of the Apostles, which are inspired scripture. There is no indication that he was "part of Israel scattered all over".

Most? Says who? Can you cite any sources?

According to Understand the Bible: A Reader's Guide and Reference, Harris, 1980 and
Luke the Priest: The Authority of the Author of the Third Gospel, Strelan, 2013, *many* scholars believe he was a Greek physician from Antioch, although *some* think he was Hellenistic Jew.

ALL NT authors obviously spoke Greek.

Why did you pick on the least important comment in my last message, and ignore the rest?


Church Today In Apostasy
  
David:

You totally missed my point. Jesus died to redeem us from the curses of sin and death. Those people on their deathbeds still died, yes? This means they weren't redeemed from death. Why not? Why assume they were redeemed from things you can't see and can't verify, while it's clear they weren't redeemed from things you CAN see and verify? It's obvious that some parts of the redemption granted by Jesus' death still don't happen within our own lifetimes. Otherwise, why would churches have cemeteries? If Christians were redeemed from death, the world should be full of 2000 year old Christians, but it isn't.


Gospel of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
  
michael_e

More of the Cornelius story:

Acts 10:
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


How To Rebuke Evil
  
Trav:

You wrote (ad-hominem insults removed): Over 60 verses deal with whosoever in Israel.
and Israel is the context genius. Their Book. Their prophets. Their messiah, their Apostles.

Show ONE that deals with BOTH Israel AND whosoever.

Luke was Greek, not Israel.

Yes, that is true of OT, as it was literally written to them. But not NT. It was written to both Israel AND everyone else.

Tell me, why are YOU personally so obsessed with Israel alone? You yourself said that you don't even know if you are part of Israel. So why are you so obsessed with scripture that may not even apply to you in the first place, and a covenant you may not be part of?


How To Rebuke Evil
  
Trav:

No, it isn't. NO Old Testament Prophet ever said "whosoever in Israel".
No New Testament apostle ever said "whosoever in Israel".

You are deliberately misrepresenting scripture to push your own agenda that only you believe.

Of course Apostles in Acts 2 addressed men of Israel - because that's who they were talking to at the time. That in no way says God's promise was exclusive to them only. There were other places, like John 3:16, written to everyone in general, where no such qualification applied.

Context, man, context!


Church Today In Apostasy
  
David:

Jesus freed us from the curses of sin, disease, and death, which we all inherited from Adam. That Christians still get sick, and die (witnessed by church cemeteries for the past two millennia) and even the Apostles gave us rules for how to deal with sins and apostasy within the church demonstrate that none of these were absolute and instantaneous.

Do YOU personally know any Christian who never sins or gets sick, and who is living forever? I sure don't.

So if what you're saying is, indeed, true, this means at least 99.999999% of Christians throughout history have not been saved and redeemed. "I came to save mankind from sin, but that doesn't apply to most of you" is not a particularly appealing gospel.


How To Rebuke Evil
  
Trav:

You're STILL ignoring the word "whosoever" which is used in several different scriptures.


Church Today In Apostasy
  
David:

Through Adam's disobedience, all became SLAVES to sin. Through Jesus' sacrifice, we are no longer SLAVES to sin. We aren't incapable of it, just no longer compelled to do it. 1 John says if we sin, we must confess, and He will forgive us - written to the Church, not unbelievers.

There can be sin without Law. E.g. Adam eating the fruit, Cain murdering Abel even though there was no law against murder at that time.

Some were saying we should sin more to better demonstrate God's grace, but Paul said God forbid!

Unfortunately, many who call themselves Christians believe in "Easy Grace", treating it as a "get out of hell free" card, a license to do whatever they please with no repercussions.


Church Today In Apostasy
  
David:

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If we were currently under the Law, then we would be required to live 100% sinless lives from the moment we were saved until death. Even one single slip-up of the tiniest kind, and it would be just as bad as if we had committed mass murder.

To claim that one is totally sinless is to try to justify oneself according to the Law.

We would be total slaves to the Law. Jesus died to free us from slavery to the Law.


How To Rebuke Evil
  
Trav:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This does not say "For God so loved Israel", nor "whosoever of Israel believeth in him". These refer to everyone, whether they are of Israel or not.


Orthodox Church Priesthood
  
Trav:

You wrote: Well which of the 30,000 denoms are ya that cannot agree?

Denominations often differ on minor points, but agree on the fundamental ones.

have never posted a single scripture about a Sheep or Israel.

The reason I haven't posted any such scripture is that YOU did, and *I AGREE WITH THOSE SCRIPTURES* as I have said again and again.

On the other hand, YOU never post a single scripture about sheep that are NOT of this fold (i.e. people outside of Israel), and even though I have done so several times, you interpret them differently than almost all Christians throughout history have done. What gives you alone such amazing insight that all other Christians in the past 2000 years lack?


Church Today In Apostasy
  
David:

We need an interpreter because the Bible was written in informal language, to commmon people. It is not a legal document written in precise legalese. It is not a precise mathematical, scientific, or engineering specification. All of those use precise words and language, but the Bible does not.

What does "rightly divide the word of truth" mean, precisely?, What is "the word of truth"? How does one "divide" a word? How does one do it "rightly"? None of these terms are precisely defined. It is assumed the reader will be able to figure it out. People 2000 years ago lived in a different culture and had different preconceptions and assumptions than we do, so things need to be interpreted.


Orthodox Church Priesthood
  
Trav:

You wrote: You just testified you dont follow GOD you follow man.

I said no such thing, but thanks yet again by lying and putting words in my mouth I never said. I said what most Christians in the world today believe. You can interpret this in one of two ways:

1) God cares for his church, and guides it in the way it should go, so Christians mostly follow God's plan, or

2) God willingly lets 99.999999% of his Church lapse into delusion, but only reveals The One And Only Truth to one single person named Trav.

Which of these two scenarios is more likely? 2 is the kind of mindset that breeds dangerous cults.


Orthodox Church Priesthood
  
Trav:

Most Christian churches in the world today correclty believe Christ's sacrifice and admission into the New Covenant is available to ANYONE who will, NOT just Israel. This is not "my theology". This is the theology of all Christianity from Apostles down to the present age.

I REPEATEDLY showed multiple NT scriptures that say "whosoever will" - ANYONE, not just Israel. That you say these are no witnesses means you DELIBERATELY ignore multiple scriptures just because they don't agree with your own pet theory that YOU ALONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD believe. This is delusion. This is heresy. This is apostasy.

You never showed ANY OT scripture that says that everyone else is EXCLUDED from the New Covenant.


Orthodox Church Priesthood
  
Trav:

Because of the first Adam, sin entered the world, which condemned EVERYONE to death. The Second Adam (Jesus) conquered sin, fixing that. So what, did that fix only apply to a certain select few, leaving everyone else without hope? Because that's what you are preaching if you say the Second Covenant applies only to Israel, and the Gospel is preached to everyone else just to thumb their noses it "This is for Israel but not for you".

You say that calling the Second Covenant open to all a false doctrine. If it is, every other Christian on the planet has it wrong, and only have it right. Thinking "I alone have the truth. Everyone else is wrong" is delusion, and the basis of all cults.


Church Today In Apostasy
  
RichardC:

1 John 1 8-10:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John was written to the church - yet says "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves".

Yes, Jesus cleanses us from sin, but that is not instantaneous. He also conquered death, yet we still die. The abundance of Christian cemeteries for the last 2000 years proves this conquest is not yet complete.

Do you know ANY church full of 100% sinless and 100% immortal saints?


How To Rebuke Evil
  
Trav:

You quoted something I said - and then what you said in response had NOTHING TO DO with what you quoted.

Yes, Israel united. I have NEVER disagreed with you on that. Never. So why do you keep pushing a point on me THAT I ALREADY AGREE WITH?

Yet you constantly ignore and refuse to accept that Christ died for the sins of ALL, not just Israel, despite many New Testament scriptures about that.

Judah never equals all Israel

Then how do you explain how Paul, a Benjamite, called himself a Jew? Why do you never explain this?


Orthodox Church Priesthood
  
Trav:

You wrote: Again Ill post for those seeking truth. OT = NT.

No. If they were the same, we would not need the NT at all. There are many things revealed in the New Testament that were not even conceived of in the Old Testament.

It's curious that you claim to be a Christian, yet almost every scripture you quote ignores the New Testament, and sticks mainly to the old. It's almost as if you prefer the old covenant to the new one. Why is that?



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