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What Is A Christian
I think the song "Trust and Obey" sums it all up.

Trust without obedience = imagination

"Many will say to me in that day: Lord,have we not prophesied in THY NAME? and in THY NAME have cast out devils? and in THY NAME done MANY wonderful works? And I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me ye that work INIQUITY." Matt.7:22-23

Obedience without trust = selfjustification?

True obedience without trust = impossible

"I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit, for without me ye can do nothing." John15:4

Help From Church If You Tithe

I guess we just disagree about these things.

I agree with you that giving and equality are good. But I still would also pay the tithe - even if it would make my daily needs seem difficult to cover. I believe God will provide for us when we give our lives to Him. As the song says: "Trust and obey..."

"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. but ye say: Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings... Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith... if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour out a blessing..." Mal.3:8-10

What's God's storehouse today? Isn't it where we may find "the bread of life"?

Help From Church If You Tithe

I don't mind if Abraham only payed tithe from the spoils. It's logic, as this was what he had just received. The point is that he payed it, and not just to anyone, but to Melchizedec, whose priesthood was a type of Jesus (Hebr.7).

If Jacob didn't pay the tithe to God, he was a liar.

He said: "And of ALL that thou shalt give me I WILL SURELY give the tenth unto thee." Gen.28:22

I know it's not written that he did it. But that doesn't mean he didn't do it. (It doesn't say that ate or washed neither, but I think he did...) But if we say he didn't, we accuse him for being a liar. And I don't think he would brake his promise to God (just compare to what happened to Ananias and Sapphira, Acts 5:1-11)

Can I Continue To Sin
"I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me..." Gal.2:20

Paul wrote this. But what was it all about?

"I am crucified.... Christ liveth in me..."???

Jesus said:

"That wich is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ...Ye must be born AGAIN." John3:6-7

Romans 8 explains this in practical life. Can't quote it because of the word limit, but please read it :)

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Rom.8,13

Help From Church If You Tithe
"Abraham gave a tenth of the war spoils - nothing else. This is verified in Hebrews 7." Gary

You can't actually say he didn't give from nothing else. It just doesn't say.
But it might have been only the spoils.
But if he payed from the war spoils, then it should be considered a tenth of his INCOME.

"There is NO scripture showing that Jacob ever tithed." Gary

But how could he make a promise if the arrangement didn't exist in his days? And don't you think Jacob - Israel! - would have fulfilled such a promise to the God of heaven?

Why do you not like the arrangement of the tithe?

Help From Church If You Tithe
"How could the war spoils be considered his income if they didn't belong to him? Abraham, himself, said he wouldn't accept anything belonging to someone else." - Gary

I'm glad you said this. I too didn't actually think Abraham payed the tithe from the spoils, - but from his own property. As it says:

"And he gave him tithes OF ALL." Gen.15:20

But he wasn't the only one (BEFORE the 12 tribes and the sanctuary service even existed). Even JACOB did! After he'd seen the ladder, he said:

"And of ALL that thou shalt give me I WILL SURELY give the tenth unto thee." Gen.28:22

Even Jesus encouraged the pharisees to continue the practice of paying tithe (Matt.23:23)!

Can I Continue To Sin
"Dangerous implying meaning of one scripture while dismissing ignoring other scriptures" -Rhonda

Agree in principle, but I didn't quote just 1 text.

"or Holy Scripture has lied when it states you are a LIAR and have no truth if you say you have no sin"-Rhonda

That text (1John1:9)is not about sinning or not, but about confessing it or to try to hide it WHEN you have sinned (see the verse above, v.8! And also Prov.28:13. And the parable about the taxcollector and the pharisee, Luk.15:9-14). Both were sinners (and believers!), but only the one confessing it, was forgiven.)

But which sin is too great for God to help us to overcome?

Help From Church If You Tithe
"Abraham gave a tenth of WAR SPOILS which didn't even belong to him. He kept nothing for himself. He didn't give a tenth of his income. Biblical historians agree that it was custom to give a tenth of war spoils to the king during the days of Abraham."-Gary

Perhaps the custum was so....

But Abraham didn't give the tithe to the king of Sodom. He let him have everything of the war spoils (except the portion to his confederates). Why? See Gen.14:23!

But before this he gave tithe to Melchizedek, who was "PRIEST OF THE MOST HIGH GOD" (Gen.14:18).

(And if the war spoils was his portion, it could be considered as his income.)
Like I said, coins had not been inventet in those days...

Help From Church If You Tithe
/The tithe ONLY affected the 12 tribes of Israel./-Gary

Why then, long before there were 12 tribes of Israel, did Abraham give tithe to Melchizedek, "king of Salem", who was "priest of the most high God"?

"And he gave him tithes of all." (Gen.14:20)

Abraham's meeting with Melchizedek was special. (If you read the story, you'll see that it is about giving back to God, and practically: to those who serve him.)

But who was Melchizedek?
"Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patricarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils." Hebr.7:4
At least he was a type of Christ (read the whole chapter)

Can I Continue To Sin
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers...etc (thieves, drunkards, revilers...) shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1.Cor.6:9-10

"Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ... Except a man be born of water (repentance/justification) and of the Spirit (sanctification), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John3:3,5

This had happende to the christians in Corinth!

"And such WERE some of you: but ye are WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY THE SPIRIT." 1Cor.6:11

That's how we may "sin no more" :)

Help From Church If You Tithe
/you don't understand the tithe.-Gary/, I don't understand what you mean I don't understand?

And concerning the way of paying the tithe:

I didn't say metal was not used as a exchange value. It was - and the texts you mention refers to them (The standard (measurement) was: weight!) But coins (which have no other standard than what is prescribed (and inscribed) to them) were not invented until later (about 700 BC).
But that doesn't change anything about the tithe and the principle behind it. The way of paying it (crops, metal, coins, paper money, credit card...) should not really matter...

Help From Church If You Tithe
It's not anything strange with the payment of tithe with only food (goods) in the Old Testament. Coins were not invented yet. According to numismatics the coins originated about 600-550 BC in Anatolia (Turkey).Some say the oldest is from 700 BC.

Anyway, the tithe was God's part of the value, whatever it was - crops, animals, gold.... or coins (when they became a value system). To us it will be natural to use money... But to a farmer in Kandahari it could perhaps be natural with animals and crops, like in the old days.

The prinsiple of giving BACK a certain part to God from the GREAT blessing HE HAS GIVEN US, must be the most important part, independent of the circumstances :o) Then we'll never forget that HE's the giver!

How To Get Rid Of Anger
Long ago, when humans were mostly hunter/gatherers, anger was an emotion that could save one's life. The adrenaline that follows the emotion sharpens the mind and the senses, improving dexterity and problem-solving in dangerous situations.
Now, in this day and age, we lack most of those situations. New Yorkers, Chicagoans, and Los Angelenos rarely have to concern themselves with surviving lion attacks... :) We find ourselves without an outlet for a very inborn, natural reaction to stress. I feel like you just need an outlet. Ask God for an answer. What could your outlet be? What would use that energy and passion while pleasing God at the same time? I'll pray for you. (Ann, Historian/Anger Sufferer)

How Many Times Born Again
Jesus said: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

What makes the man a new creature? The water? Or the Spirit?

Water is only water. But the Spirit has power to change (John 3:7-8)!

"Ye shall know them by their fruits," Jesus said about how to understand if a prophet was from God or not (Matt.7:16). So also with ourselves:

-Do I find the fruits of the Spirit in my own life?

Are there love, joy, peace, faith, meekness, temperance, etc. - during ALL challenges of my DAILY life? (Gal.6:22-23)

I think we must be born again DAILY so that these fruits may be part of our character.


Is Jesus God Or A Son
I think that when the Bible says Jesus is God's son, he IS God's son.

We may compare with how a cat gives birth to cats, a horse to horses, a human being to humans etc. And the newborn cat is just as much a cat as the mothercat, the horse as the horsemother etc.

The same way, the son of God ("his only begotten son", John 3:16) will also be God. Yet they are two seperate personalities.

The Bible describes Jesus as the mediator. Between who? Between us and His Father.

" mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (2.Tim.2:5)

It's not possible to be a MEDIATOR (the one necessary BETWEEN two parts) between someone self...
So Jesus and the Father have to be two.

My Life Is In Bad Shape
Luk.15:11-32 will answer all your questions! -The parable of the Lost Son.

We're all like this lost son. We're all (usually) partly responsible for our miseries (like the son left his father, wasted his property on immoral things etc). But there are also circumstances that occours without our influence (like the famine).

We may ask WHY, but God often ALLOWS tings to happen to make us realize our condition and TURN BACK TO HIM! It was not until his world broke down that the lost son "came to himself" (v.17). He realized his sin and unworthyness - yet, he had no other place to go but to his father. And so he did...

READ the parable CAREFULLY and learn HOW GOD will treat US - despite all our faults and unworthyness!

Belief In God And Darwin
//show me where in the Bible that animals or plants never died, or were never subject to decay or disease before the Fall.// -Cluny

"And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold it was very good." (Gen.1:31)

I wouldn't call decay and disease "very good"...
And how can you call something that is yet not fully developed "very good"?

The Bible is very clear in that God created it all in 6 literal days, and then He blessed the 7th day, thus underlining the week of completeness. No need for further developement!

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were NOT MADE OF THINGS WHICH DO APPEAR" (Hebr.11:3)

Belief In God And Darwin
If God guided evolution... how, then, should we explain how sin, death, disease and decay came into being? If we seriously think about these things, we'll find that there is no possibility to explain them - with the biblical definitions of them - in the paradigm of an evolution.

For instance: The Bible says that DEATH is a result of SIN. But according to evolution DEATH would have occoured MANY TIMES before the first human (who was to make the first sin!) had even evolved...

It's just not possible to combine the two paradigms... And we do not have to. Scientists who don't believe in God, will of course reject creation. But many scientists who believe find NO PROBLEM with the biblical story about creation from nothing.

Belief In God And Darwin
The Bible doesn't say HOW God created, only that He spoke and it came into being, that it took place in 6 days, and that it was all perfect when this short(!) period was over. And the Bible honours God as the CREATOR.

The different theories of evolution have no room for God. Some Christians try to combine the two... But the scientists of evolution have already EXCLUDED God's existence. Therefore they look for other possible explanations to what we see. That's logic.

Personally I believe in creation and in the Bible. God is described as a God of order (1Cor.14:33), who also supports the weak. He wouldn't work according to the principles of "random chance" and "natural selection". :-)

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