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Church Today In Apostasy
  
Through Jesus' sacrifice, we are no longer SLAVES to sin. We aren't incapable of it, just no longer compelled to do it.---StrongAxe

A slave sins against their will StrongAxe. If a free man sins, he sins willfully. Are you telling me, you have been set free of sin, and you willfully sin against God, as Kathrine proclaims she does?

I asked who HERE ON THIS SITE agrees with you? ---kathr

Couldn't find anyone in the bible, to corroborate what you believe Paul taught, so now StrongAxe is your witness?


Church Today In Apostasy
  
StrongAxe
My mistake, I thought you believed Jesus died for our sins, just as I do.
Why do I say this?

Facts!!!
Sin is the transgression of the Law.(1 John 3:4)
Jesus died as our sacrifice for sin when we break the Law.
If you are not under the Law, you can not sin. If you can not sin, you do not need a sacrifice for sin.

So tell me your interpretation, as to why Jesus had to die on the cross?


Church Today In Apostasy
  
WHO ELSE AGREES WITH YOU? ---kathr4453

Well lets see...
There is of course, Jesus, the Son of God. John, Paul, James, and Peter, just to name a few. Who agrees with you?

You see Kathrine, that's the point, you and many like you are missing. You don't look for your witnesses to Paul's teachings in the Bible. By your own words...you look to mainstream church doctrines as your witnesses.

If that is not true, give me one witness in the Bible, one who teaches we are not under the Law of God. You have Paul, but show me another witness, just one, who teaches what you claim Paul taught.

Ephesians 4...If a church is founded on a false doctrine, one whose teachings are against Christ, are they the body of Christ?


Church Today In Apostasy
  
StrongAxe & Kathrine
I don't know where to begin, for you have both been instrumental in helping me to better understand the division in the church. It is because many are following interpreters of the bible, and not the actual teachers...in the bible.

You believe, Though folks can get a bible interpreted into their own language, they must find another interpreter, to interpret the interpreted bible. The Pope, Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Benny Hinn, T. D. Jakes, Joyce Meyer, and Kenneth Copeland are all interpreters.

I listed all of them in one lump, for they are all interpreters. What criteria do folks use as to which interpretation to follow?
(2 Timothy 4:3)


What Is Rightly Dividing The Word
  
When reading (1 Timothy) we must remember it is a letter, a letter written to single person. In order to understand the middle portion of this letter, we must read the entire letter to understand the context.

Imagine having a 15 page letter, written to someone else. Wouldn't it be hard to understand the context of the letter if you only had one page of that letter?

If you read the entire letter you can understand what Paul was talking about. In the first chapter of the letter you can see teachers were still mixing the Law of Moses in with the Law of Christ. Just as they were in (Acts 15).


Church Today In Apostasy
  
David I LOVE ROMANS 2. But I just interpret it differently than you do.---kathr4453

That's the whole point, (Romans 2) is a teaching, and Paul was the teacher.
Have you ever considered, If you need to interpret what a teacher, teaches, perhaps it is not the teaching, but your lack of knowledge of the subject they are teaching?

A teacher is an instructor...not a mystery writer. An interpreter is a person who provides an oral translation between speakers who speak different languages. We have bibles, translated into our language, so why is there need for an interpreter?

The reason, is so folks can make the bible say what they want it to say.


Church Today In Apostasy
  
All David has is CONJECTURE.---kathr4453

Is it Conjecture, when I have multiple witnesses from teachers....in the Bible?
Kathrine, like most mainstream teachers, have no biblical witnesses. The only place where their doctrines find any support, is in Paul's epistles, even though Paul himself, refutes their interpretations. This is why they don't teach chapters like (Romans 2). It says what it says, and needs no interpretation.

They simply have no corroborating witnesses in the bible, to support what they claim Paul taught. So people who follow their teachings must rely solely on their Interpretations of the bible. Thereby, the interpreter becomes the teacher.


Church Today In Apostasy
  
John 8:34-35) Jesus replied, Very truly I tell you, Everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.

StrongAxe
Foundation brother..Foundation!
In the above passage, taught by the Author of Salvation, What's the difference between the slave, and the son? If one of them is a slave because they sin, doesn't it stand to reason, the other is a son... because they do not sin? Can you see the delineation?

This delineation is also expounded upon in (1 John). (1 John 1 8-10) is written about those who are still slaves, (1 John 3:9-10) to those are Sons....permanent members of the family.


Church Today In Apostasy
  
I just don't believe your interpretation of Jesus teachings.---kathr4453

That's what the majority of folks are blind to.The Gospels are the T-E-A-C-H-I-N-G-S of Jesus Christ.

A teaching, written in your language, shouldn't need an interpreter. If if it does, The interpreter becomes your teacher.
When you went to school, as a child, did your teacher have an interpreter? No.
When you went to college, did your professors have an interpreter?
No.

But many folks have been led to believe, the Son of God, the master teacher, needs a man to interpret his teachings. That's not saying much about the Son of Gods ability, to teach...now is it?


Church Today In Apostasy
  
Man we shouldnt even respond to insanity.---Trav

I respond, because I understand why those who reject the teachings of Jesus Christ sound so delusional.
(2 Thessalonians 2:11-12) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Kathrine, and "Mainstream Christianity", clearly reject the teachings Jesus taught to his disciples. So..naturally, they will sound delusional to those of us who teach and believe the teachings of Jesus Christ.


Church Today In Apostasy
  
Can you get through your head others don't interpret the scriptures as you do? ---kathr4453

Isn't it Interesting, How a clearly written teaching needs to be interpreted, when people like Kathrine disagree with the teachers.
Like this one....who is obviously teaching works, according to the book of Kathrine.

(Hebrews 5:9-10)KJV
And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all those who obey Him, being called by God as a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.


Church Today In Apostasy
  
And because of David's teachings of sinless perfection....---kathr4453

(1 John 3:9-10)
Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, for His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither is he that loveth not his brother.


For anyone new here, as you can see, Kathrine gets John and I confused. As you all know, I didn't pen anything written in the bible.
Since it was John who taught," those born of God do not sin", I believe she is unknowingly, calling John out for being the leader of a cult.


Church Today In Apostasy
  
Christ defines Christianity, not other Christians.---michael_e

(2 Corinthians 5:20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were beseeching you by us: we pray you on Christs stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Michael
True, but as ambassadors for Christ shouldn't the world sees Christ in us?
And if we call ourselves the Sons of God, shouldn't the world expect us to act accordingly?

The bible tells us the Sons of God do not sin (1 John 3:9 & 10). Whereas the church tells the world we are saved and therefore, the Sons of God, and we do sin. If the church tells the world the Sons of God sin, and Jesus is the Son of God, they bring Christ down.

Which is what Paul meant in (Romans 10:6-7).


Church Today In Apostasy
  
The question we must ask ourselves, "Why is the church divided?"

There is one Truth, not many Truths.
So logically, if we all followed theTruth, wouldn't we all be united as one? Truth creates unity, a lie...division.

Now we get to the root of the problem, What is TheTruth?
Personally, I have never seen division amongst those who use the Gospel of Jesus as their foundation. But I have seen many doctrines created, from those who use Paul's Epistles as their foundation.

Now by simple deduction, if one foundation creates unity and the other creates division, upon which foundation should we build? One of these foundations created the Apostasy. Which one?


Church Today In Apostasy
  
The question we must ask ourselves, "Why is the church divided?"

There is one Truth, not many Truths.
So logically, if we all followed theTruth, wouldn't we all be united as one? Truth creates unity, a lie...division.

Now we get to the root of the problem, What is TheTruth?
Personally, I have never seen division amongst those who use the Gospel of Jesus as their foundation. But I have seen many doctrines created, from those who use Paul's Epistles as their foundation.

Now by simple deduction, if one foundation creates unity and the other creates division, upon which foundation should we build? One of these foundations created the Apostasy. Which one?


Orthodox Church Priesthood
  
But, Dave, we in Jesus are His "royal priesthood" > 1 Peter 2:9. And there are many of us. So, I am saying the number of members in a priesthood alone is not the measure.So, what do you find, more essential perhaps, that is a difference, please?
---Bill on 9/15/21


Bill
Sorry, I wasn't ducking your question, I just didn't see it before I left.
I came back because the reason I left, well...she left too.

Yes there are many of us in Christ's royal priesthood, but it doesn't say we are his Priests. The Levite priesthood was a priesthood of many, but also with many priests. And that's the difference!


Church Today In Apostasy
  
Many will say, "The will of God, is to believe in Jesus Christ."
What does that mean exactly?
Funny thing, Jesus gives a very clear discernible answer to this question, but when searching the web, I could not find a single teacher that used the words of Jesus Christ to answer this question.
Why?
Because the words of Jesus Christ, the Author of our Salvation, his word undermines their doctrine.

Whereas Paul, well we can spin his words around to say anything we want, as evidenced by the many doctrines which are only founded on his epistles, which apparently... need no witnesses.


Church Today In Apostasy
  
I agree with StrongAxe, people should see Christ in us. If everyone who calls themselves Christian, would try to act the manner in which Christ taught us to act, this world wouldn't be in the condition it is today.

The question is:
Why don't Christians do what Christ wants us to do?
The answer?
The vast majority of churches teach, making Jesus your Lord, is not a requirement for our salvation.

Many only call Jesus, Lord, but they don't make him Lord.
Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in Heaven. (Matthew 7:21)


What Was Paul's Gospel
  
The Holy Spirit is given only to those saved. ---Samuel

I was going to stay out of this, but I want everyone to realize, this statement is blatantly false.
Why?
Because in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, according to the bible in (Acts 2:38), we are required to do something to receive this gift.

(Acts 2:38) KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


If we are saved when we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and we receive the Holy Spirit when we repent and get baptized, we can save ourselves by what we do.


What Was Paul's Gospel
  
David,You have been trying to take this discussion in a different direction since you decided to come back here. You have missed the point and have tried to hijack this conversation. Please stop it. ---Samuel on 10/1/21

Samuel
Are you the moderator of this site?
I looked at all the rules, and I don't see where I have broken any. And If you recall, you challenged my position and I simply defended it.

A little advise:
If you don't have enough biblical knowledge to defend your position with someone...don't challenge their position. Simply tell the other person you that do not have enough knowledge, instead of saying they are a high jacker...stalker...or bully as a deflection.



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