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Fellowship For Non-Church Goers
shira4368 - what Frances is asking is that you may ask your pastor which day is the Jewish Sabbath and which day the Spirit of the Lord has us to assemble for communal worship.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Non-Jewish Christian worship on Sundays, the Lord's day.

Never Heard About Jesus
//But the passage is (Romans 2:14.15) is speaking of those Gentiles who are a law unto themselves. They know the law of God in their hearts but they are "Automomus" here is what it says, "by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, "are a law to themselves". and here is how it ends, "in the day (Judgment Day) when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel"

Francis here has to say the scripture is wrong since how on earth could the Gentiles do by nature what the law required and yet did NOT observe the Old Jewish Sabbath.

10 Commandments Eliminated
what is the ten commandments?

Exodus 34:28 So he was there with the LORD 40 days and nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the 10 Commandments.
De 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the 10 Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

So the 10 commandments was the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

This says the 10 commandments being the old covenant became obsolete.

All the commandment except the Sabbath are in the New Covenant.

Obedience To Righteousness
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There is simply no rationale to believe that the commandments Abraham obeyed were those given at Mt. Sinai.

First Three Days Of Creation
Jerry6593 // Your post is scientifically bankrupt and silly at best.

It is silly in view of the fact that our God is not limited or restricted in regard to time. He may have created the world in 24 hour periods, or simply called it into being at His Word.

I am inclined to beleive that in accordance to what the Scripture teaches, the world was calling into existence simply by His word. He did not have to wait 24 hours between events.

Those that seem to have a real hung-up with this issue are those that support observance of the old Jewish Sabbath.

Do Lies Become Truth
"A lie told often enough becomes the truth."

Valimar Lenin Russian Communist politician & revolutionary (1870 - 1924)

Stop Cigs, Gambling Drinking
Suggest that you get involved in a support group.

Angelic Founder Visitations
Jerry is correct in that Adventists no longer believe that Jesus was the incarnate archangel Michael.

From Wikipedia -

Seventh-day Adventists have traditionally identified Michael the archangel of Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7 as Jesus Christ which is hinted at in Thessalonians 4:16 , so also for "Michael the great prince" of Daniel 12:1. There is a common perception that Adventists are relegating Jesus to something less than divine or less than God.[citation needed] That is no longer valid since Seventh-day Adventism is now expressly Trinitarian.

Explain 1 Corinthians 15:56
francis //SIn which is breaking of the law, gets it's strength from these commandments which are unchangable, unbending and unyielding.

Yes, the OT law specifically states that male children MUST BE circumcised and if possible on the 8th day after birth. But, I would ask you francis, if this law is APPLICABLE to us as Christians. If you say male children need not become circumcised then CLEARLY, you have a law that is not applicable and thus is NOT a sin.

It is the same with the OT Sabbath as if it were applicable THEN we would MOST CERTAINLY see it commanded of the church in the New Testament BUT we do NOT.

Scaried Of Prophets Apostles
Cluny //I forgot to mention, lee, that the Church was in full fledged functioning existence before ONE WORD of the NT was written. The NT reflects the Church. The Church does not conform herself to it, as she decided what should be in it to start with.

Yes, the church was in existence before the scripture canon was completed. However, no 2 churches were alike as there were disputes even among all the early church fathers.

But can we say that they reflected Orthodox Church teachings in all ways?

If you answered NO, you got the right answer.

Like your sister church in Rome, their beliefs and ritualistic theologies evolved.

Explain Matthew 5:17
Jerry //Exactly which laws of the Old Testament are NOT applicable to the Christian, and WHY?

Physical circumcision for instance like the OT Sabbath belonged ONLY to the Old Covenant.

A covenant is an agreement between parties and like a last will and testament become obsolete when replaced by a new one.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

So sorry Jerry but the Sabbath is a law found only in a covenant that became OBSOLETE.

Explain 1 Corinthians 15:56
Haz //Francis. The ministry of DEATH, written and engraved on stones is the law of sin and death (10C).
Trangression resulted in death, the same as what you preach here on CN.

The Adventist like Francis and Jerry, possess a mindset much like the radical Islamist in that they cannot be subject to change without an overwhelming external influence. In the case of former Adventists, it is usually an act of God's holy Spirit opening their eyes to the false gospel as preached by Adventism.

Thus we can expect to see them embrace that ministry of death & condemnantion craved on letters of stone unless the Lord has mercy upon them.

Scaried Of Prophets Apostles
//What is scriptural is the old dispute that has divided the church for ever......\\

Wrong, Peter.

It only divides Church from non-church.

the non-church is composed of those that have only a Christianized philosophy that is only a creation of themselves. However, the true church is that body of genuine believers in whom the Spirit of God indwelts Romans 8:9.

It is obvious which church Cluny supports - the one made by man, or that one made by God's Spirit.

Angelic Founder Visitations
//SDA use the the follwoing BIBLE standard:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

SDA quote the Bible usually out of context.

The verse in Isaiah 8:20 refers to those "that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter" (8,19) and that exactly reflects olde Ellen White does it not?

That familiar spirit was her 'accompanying angel'. One needs only to view the dissension she has caused in God's household to see what spirit worked in her.

Explain Matthew 5:17
//What laws of the Old Testament are NOT applicable to the Christian, and WHY?

Because the New Covenant is one of the Spirit and not the law.

2 Cor. 3:7f Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. .... For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

Those w/o God's Spirit have only a religious philosophy.

Scaried Of Prophets Apostles
//But as you pointed out, these are the denominational churches. And as I've pointed out, Orthodoxy is pre-denominational.

Somewhat true but only from a historical perspective.

Orthodoxy eventually morphed into a denomination with its own governoring literature liken to other denominations.

There is nothing in any of the more traditional denominations that would keep their beliefs totally scriptural.

Explain 1 Corinthians 15:56
//Christians are under the much more glorious ministry of the Spirit/Righteousness. We obey His commandments, 1John 3:23

Totally agree but those that advocate obedience to law have only a religious philosophy by which they strive to live. And they are subject to their own interpretation of the law.

Those that walk by God's Spirit are NOT under the law.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

What Applies To Christians
//laws having to do with shedding of blood for sin or cleansing has been done by Jesus. Christians are now to accept the blood of Jesus by faith.

But any law not found in the New Covenant but is only in the Old Covenant would not be applicable to the Christian walk.

Remember there are civic and ceremonial laws (customs) that did not cover over into the New Covenant.

And then there were laws that Christ fulfilled.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

What Applies To Christians
Lee: And to whom did Jesus command to 'remember the Sabbath day'?

Jerry //If you'll recall, there was a "mixed multitude" of non-Hebrews among the children of Israel. The Sabbath commandment even contains reference to non-Hebrews as "the stranger that is within thy gates".

These 'mixed multitude' were proselytes to Judaism. They became circumcised and were required to observe all the laws of Judaism.

Your confusion lies in the fact that you wrongly try to tie these converts to the nations from which they came. Sorry guy, but the law given at Mt Sinai was NOT NOT to all nations.

Laws given to Israel were not given to other nations, howbeit, moral laws were common among different peoples.

Ten Commandments Or Jesus
francis//The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

Moral law is really something that is inherent in man. It is there as we were created in God's image. We do not have to LEARN it but something like the Sabbath would indeed be something that has to be learned and I would view these types of laws that can put one into bondage.

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