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Who Is Jesus Scriptures
David8318, John 1:1 doesn't promote polytheism, though I know why you use the rhetoric. When JWs die they will meet the god in whom they believe shed blood for them, for they don't believe in the precious blood of Deity but of some creature's blood that is no more precious than that of bulls or goats (altogether now,) "which can never take away sins", for how could the real Jesus have purchased men for God (Rev 5:9) if He were not the Word-made-flesh (Deity)? Remember what I told you: If you believe that this creature-jesus laid down his life for you, then it is to him whom you owe your life, and not God, for God would have sacrificed nothing more than the time to create another creature. God sacrificed His Son, not a Pinocchio.

Water Turned Into Wine
StrongAxe, you are not reading my posts comprehensively: The bookend prophets verse (Luke 11:51) does tell us what is not between them - the Apocrypha, of which, as a reprove, Jesus nor the Apostles ever quoted from. So, how do I know which books are between the bookends? Well, Romans 3:2 tells me that what the Jews canonised is inspired. So I see that my O.T. is the same as the Tanakh (Hebrew bible), and neither, obviously, contain the Book of Enoch. So why is this book uninspired? Evidently it is not 100% truth and therefore rejected. So why did Jude quote from it? Evidently there is at least one truth we know of in the Book of Enoch, and Jude sourced it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, this needn't be problematic.

Water Turned Into Wine
Cluny, you bang on: tradition, tradition, tradition! Man-centered, man-centered, man-centered!

God gave the Law, God gave the Prophets, God gave the Writings. Nevertheless, Jesus and the Apostles knew those 'sections' for what they were.

Proverbs 29:25 Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe.

Get yourself unsnared, Clunes.

Water Turned Into Wine
Cluny, you say, 'John 5:39 does not prove your point that the Jews did not canonize the Apocrypha.'

Not on its own, but once you understand that Jesus omitted the Apocrypha (Luke 11:51), and how Paul commends the Jews (Romans 3:2), then it does.

Also you claim, 'But John 5:39 DOES say that devotion to the Scriptures can get in the way of seeing Jesus.., the Bible itself can become an idol.'

No, Cluny, not at all, in fact that's the Devil you are speaking. It teaches us that these Jews wanted to grab the Kingdom for themselves, and not to accept Him, but to usurp Him:

Matt 21:38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, This is the heir. Come, lets kill him and take his inheritance.

Water Turned Into Wine
Cluny, you are wrong about the Jews canonising the Apocrypha. Incredulous you may be, but Jesus has intimated so:
John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have (hold, posses) eternal life, it is these that testify about Me. ..,
Seems the Jews entirely knew that they were the regents of God's word. And there's nothing said here, by Jesus, challenging the Jews regarding what they had, or had not, canonised. Jesus was content, why do you contend?

Wouldn't it be more sensible, Cluny, to understand that the Name (reputation) of God is not with the contradictory, inaccurate, inconsistent, enchanting, superstitious, etc?

Water Turned Into Wine
StrongAxe, Esther was part of the Jewish canon of which Jesus Himself endorsed:
Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, ..,
These names all but bookend the Jewish canon of Scripture. The Apocrypha, however, is not included by The Great King Himself.

Jesus knew, right?

So once we understand this, we can then appreciate what Paul was saying about the regents of God's oracles:
Romans 3:2 .., they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
And we know that the Jews rejected the book of Enoch as being inspired.

So Paul was happy, right?

Jesus and the Apostles didn't quote from every book in Jewish canon, but they quoted from every section of Jewish canon.

Water Turned Into Wine
Cluny, are you asserting that the Jews once canonised the Apocrypha? You need to clarify because you're suggesting that they did. Your quote, "Jews did NOT exclude them"

Also, you say, "The truth is .... They were translated as part of Jewish scripture TWO CENTURIES before Christ into the LXX."

Yet Wikipedia says, "In the Early Christian Church, the presumption that the Septuagint was translated by Jews before the era of Christ"

Now I'm not saying that WP is the final word, but it most likely trumps yours.

Aren't Jesus' words enough for you? Neither of our words are final, that is why I gave you Scripture and what Jesus said and what is noteworthy about what He didn't say.

Water Turned Into Wine
Cluny, your word is not final. You need to provide support for your assertion.

Jesus didn't have a problem with the books that the Jews canonised and those they rejected, He even confirmed what they had recognised as inspired of God (see my comments below). So why do you accept that it was right to insert the Apocrypha into the Bible nearly 1500 years later?

To use your prose: You don't think that because Rome called the Apocrypha "Deuterocanon" that it makes it God-breathed, do you?

Water Turned Into Wine
Peter, my charge to Cluny's declaration is there, "The Protestant Bible is self-validating" That is to say, i.o.w, "not solely or entirely on tradition", because it's all God-breathed. So, by deduction, God is the authority, thus annuling his sarcasm. And then I moved on to challenge Cluny regarding the Apochrypha, which is not God-breathed.

To answer your question: (If you re-read my post) The books in the Old Testament not quoted from by Jesus or the Apostles are Jewish canon, which prompts Roman 3:2, the Apochrypha is not.

You really ought to read fully what someone submits, give it a chance to defend itself first, then maybe ask a question for clarity, before charging the author.

Water Turned Into Wine
Cluny, 'circular arguement'? Try deduction: "All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16) - making God the authority. The Apocrypha is not God-breathed, which Romans 3:2 attests to. See, I have already provided the scripture, and here is more:
Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, .., I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation,
Even Jesus excluded the Apocrypha while confirming the end of the old Jewish order of canon. Or do you have something from your Apostolic Tradition that extends Jesus' words? I'm reckoning not.

So, Apocrypha that is God-breathed is as rare as Apostolic Tradition from Christ.

Seems I understood your question after all, Clunes.

Water Turned Into Wine
Cluny, your quote, "what authority do you have for 27 books in the NT, and just those particular 27, OTHER than tradition? You don't actually think that God floated a list down, do you?"

The Protestant Bible is self-validating. The same cannot be adequately said about what Eastern Orthodox (or the RCC) has deemed canon:

Do you not include the Apocrypha, the same that neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever quoted from? Doesn't it contain contradictions and historical inaccuracies? And hasn't it been rejected by the Jews, who, after all, are the custodians of God's oracles:
Romans 3:2 .., they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

How To Receive Salvation
Ruben: You submit the verse and still falter, for you say, 'You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:20-24)'

And what did you submit from James 2:
"and by works faith was made complete "

Faith is still the finished article. Just like a Christian's joy is made complete: no word, no joy.

A Christian is saved unto good works, not by them:
2 Thess 1:11 ... every act prompted by your faith.

We are saved by faith alone:
Romans 1:17 .., a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

While behind a believer's joy is more word, a sign of faith is more good works.

Let's Talk About Demons
Gordon, Charles Stanley once did teach contrary to OSAS, but he switched, and said of one who thinks he can walk away, "You will meet a wall of discipline". If you believe that you will overcome the world in your own strength, then you don't need Jesus:
John 16:33 .... In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.
And only in Him do we triumph:
1 John 4:4 You, .., are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
God takes all the glory, there's not one jot for us:
Psalm 115:1 ... to your name be the glory, because of your love and faithfulness.
Can man be more faithful than God?

Let's Talk About Demons
Gordon, have you ever offered to do a good turn for someone, and their reply has been, "Oh, go on then, I'll let you"? I know that I have. So high is that person's pride that he sees it as though he is giving the presenter the honour of doing him the favour. Are you allowing God to have the honour of giving you the gift of salvation, with you being a saint and all?

No-one can boast about anything except the Lord in Heaven (Romans 3:27). Or have you supposed that one in Heaven can say to another, "You got saved, great! Man, were you a sinner! But as for me, being a saint and all, well I allowed God to saved me"?

If you are a saint, then surely it is better to let others say so (Proverbs 27:2)

Let's Talk About Demons
Gordon, you talk of love & relationships, and Scripture says:
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
So, should a OSAS-believer fear damnation if he is being made more perfect in love? You will say to me that the fear of damnation diminishes the closer he gets to being more perfect-in-love as a product of becoming more obedient - more saintly. Well, even though there is a correlation between being obedient and being more perfect in love...
John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, ....
... this is not to do with staying out of Hell by his own will.

Let's Talk About Demons
Gordon, you are trying to contribute to salvation, this is why you want to be regarded as a saint and not a sinner. Have you not read Luke 18:9-14:
I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself...
And what had the tax collector said:
God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

The gift of salvation is just that - a gift. Once you offer a contribution then the gift is not longer a gift but part of a transaction. By your saying that a Christian isn't OSAS, you burden the Christian with a choice about whether to put in the work in order to remain saved or not. Non-OSAS teaching is made lucrative because of the fear of damnation.

Let's Talk About Demons
Re: OSAS: Are not God's gift of eternal life (Ephesians 2:8) and calling thereof (John 6:44) irrevocable:
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

And it's the Father's will that Jesus lose none:

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Let's Talk About Demons
Re OSAS: If you are truly in the faith, and not just someone who is flirting with it, then how can you walk away from salvation being that you are not your own?

1 Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own, you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

(Mark V has already mention that Christians have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. I cannot imagine how God's seal could be removed by man. Rev 5:3 & 3:7.)

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse is implicit in that who God saves, He saves.

Do You Get Discouraged
Donna9759, from David Jeremiah's Spiritual Warfare sermon:

I read a story once about Satan going out of business, selling all his tools at a diabolical type garage sale. Hate, envy, jealousy, greed - all his tools were spread out on a table to be examined. Off to the side lay a small, wedge-shaped tool that was more expensive than all the rest. When asked why the small tool was the most expensive, Satan replied that the tool was discouragement. He explained that he could use discouragement to pry open a human heart better than any other tool. Once discouragement gets inside, the devil said, all the other tools can do their work.

Seems discouragement has long been considered the main inroad into the human heart for the Devil.

Do You Get Discouraged
Donna9759, Discouragement is brought about by things that we are trying to accomplish: to run ahead, to win in the flesh, or to save the world ourselves, etc. When discouragement comes, halt:

Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God, .., I will be exalted in the earth.

God is in control:

Psalm 37:7 Be still before the LORD and wait patiently for him, do not fret when men succeed in their ways, ....

Settle in your mind that there is no glory for us:

Psalm 115:1 Not to us, O LORD, not to us but to your name be the glory, ....

Yet, rejoice, for we partake in the Lord of Glory:

2 Thess 2:14 .., that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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